Re: Abiogenesis

On May 17, 5:58 pm, Mark Nutter <manutte...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On May 17, 2:03 pm, Peter Pan <peterpan55...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:





On May 17, 7:06 am, Mark Nutter <manutte...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On May 16, 2:11 pm, Peter Pan <peterpan666...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On May 16, 10:06 am, Mark Nutter <manutte...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
The question "Where did the first non-supernatural intelligence come
from" is not a philosophical question, it's a practical one. If
complexity in nature leads to a design inference (i.e. the conclusion
that there must exist some intelligent designer), then the
intelligence itself is complex enough to lead to the inference that
the designer's intelligence must also be designed. Thus, there are two
possible outcomes: either undirected natural forces are capable of
producing things as complex as design-capable intelligence (in which
case the design inference is invalidated for all lesser forms of
complexity), or you have to appeal to a supernatural designer.
"Respecting the religious beliefs of others" will not help you out of
this dilemma.

It isn't a dilemma. If it is shown an intelligence organized
the pieces, then there are two possibilities.
It essentially is a philosophical argument.
1. This intelligence was self existant.
2. This intelligence came into being the
same as all other intelligent beings, an
endless progression of intelligent beings
without beginning.

An endless progression of non-supernatural beings requires a natural
universe without a beginning as well.

No, it could be that it comes from other physical universes.
IE, this universe is simply a small cell of an infinite number
of physical universes. So, for instance, there was another
big bang event 500 billion lights years out, and another
and another.

"500 billion light years out" is a description of a space that exists
within this natural universe. No matter how far you go in this
universe, you're still in this universe. There aren't big bangs out
there somewhere creating other universes.

But since it is outside the normal thinking of people
here, I proposed it the way I did.


But regardless of that, when you propose a chronologically infinite
series of universes, each of which is a natural/physical universe
(i.e. not supernatural), you imply that each of these universes, and
all of these universes, exist within a natural realm that is greater
than any one universe. So even if all the universes are finite, the
natural realm in which they occur must still be infinite
(chronologically and spatially) in order to accommodate them all.

Correct.

Otherwise, at least some of the universes must lie outside the natural
realm to some degree, thus making them supernatural.

What's more, you specifically propose that these universes have
natural links between them, sufficient to allow an unbroken chain of
intelligently designed intelligent designers crossing all the
universes all the way back through an infinite past. Given an unbroken
chain of natural gateways between all the universes, we still end up
with a natural realm that has an infinite amount of time in which
undirected natural forces, no matter how improbable, *would* still be
statistically certain to occur, resulting in "creations" of any
arbitrary amount of complexity in form and function, up to and
including the undirected creation of intelligence itself.

I disagree.

Thus, your
proposal still invalidates intelligent design, by making origin by
undirected forces a statistical certainty, given infinite time in
which to randomly produce all the possible permutations.

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