Re: responsibility and free will


"Frank J" <fnci@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1176046422.146494.293690@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Apr 8, 2:31 am, "Denis Loubet" <dlou...@xxxxxx> wrote:
"Dale Kelly" <dale.ke...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:pan.2007.04.07.10.51.09@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx





Free will is indeterminate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

determinism says there is no free will, and all behavior emerges from
biology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

Dualists says free will is not a part of biology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_%28philosophy_of_mind%29

compatiblists try to justify a co-existence of indeterminism and
determinism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism

one interesting area to consider is responsibility

clearly the general public believe in free will and holding people
responsible for choices of their action

what do determinists and proponents of emergent behavior suppose we do?

I propose we continue to do exactly what we've been doing.

dis-mantle the legal system, since no one makes choices? un-likely

And stupid, as it's clearly not in our best interest.

revise the legal system to be a biological pest control system? cold
hearted with no consideration of emotions or choices?

That would be stupid as well, and not in our best interest.

Orwellian mental health? forced incarceration? forced drugging? forced
electroshock? forced psychosurgery?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_treatment

Another stupid idea. Obviously not in our best interest.

I think determinists have met a roadblock that they will not overcome
and
religion and philosophy is guaranteed a place forever.

No. You make the same mistake that creationists make when they assume
those
who agree with the Theory of Evolution, APPROVE of the fact of evolution.
I
agree that evolution occurs, but I know that evolution is not our friend.
Evolution is not the friend of any living thing. The mountains of extinct
species should make that abundantly clear.

Likewise, a determinist like me acknowledges the fact that I'm a machine
who's decisions are determined by the stochastic nature of the universe,
and
then goes about his life as if he had free will because there is no
purpose
to trying to second-guess his decisions. I don't LIKE determinism, but
that's irrelevant to the fact of determinism.

Why did you not see this already, and instead come up with nothing but
the
stupid ideas you put forth above?

Determinism does not change what's in our best interest. The things that
make us happy and the things that make us suffer are not changed by the
knowledge of determinism. It is in our best interests to behave as if we
have free will.

As luck would have it, that's really easy to do.

Especially because it's quantitatively, if not qualitatively
prohibitive to, uh, "determine" if it is all deterministic or not. For
the foreseeable future at least.

Well, I have my own thoughts on that... ;-)

What is especially disconcerting about the "in our best interests"
thing, is that it may well be in the "best interests" for some to deny
evolution and other "inconvenient truths" of Nature - IOW creationism
may well be an expected product of evolution.

If so, that's another reason to recognize evolution as Not Our Friend!

If so, by rejecting
determinism *or* evolution (& it's usually both) anti-evolutionists
are rejecting the very foundation of their own strategy. OTOH if free
will is real, people can think for themselves and behave well despite
being biologically related to species that do disgusting things. Never
mind that no other species can match some H. sapiens individuals in
terms of disgusting behavior.

Is there no end to the irony?

That's the thing about irony...



--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@xxxxxx
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: responsibility and free will
    ... That would be stupid as well, and not in our best interest. ... who agree with the Theory of Evolution, APPROVE of the fact of evolution. ... I don't LIKE determinism, but ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: The Wonders of Evolution
    ... individual humans are aware of their intent. ... Evolution may, or may not, be a good theory but you are talking about ... In each case those organisms ... I don't see anything above which commits me to determinism. ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: determinism
    ... incompatible with determinism, I do not think this means indeterminism ... Evolution is not thought of as deterministic - in the sense I think you ... modern mathematical theory no longer supports absolute ... This went out the window when Godel showed that the Russell- ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: determinism
    ... incompatible with determinism, I do not think this means ... Evolution is not thought of as deterministic - in the sense I think ... Sense 1 of modern physics (i.e., quantum indeterminacy and all ... prediction fairly soon, just as we do with weather systems. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Evolution is NOT random
    ... He comes very close to complete determinism, ... He might agree that neutral evolution would be ... dkomo with this language), adaptive evolution would still ... Gould chose a poor metaphor for replaying the history of life on this ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)