Re: Right on topic

On Mar 24, 5:24 pm, "chris.linthomp...@xxxxxxxxx"
<chris.linthomp...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mar 24, 7:27 pm, "Glenn" <GlennShel...@xxxxxxx> wrote:





On Mar 24, 3:31 pm, "chris.linthomp...@xxxxxxxxx"

<chris.linthomp...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mar 24, 5:56 pm, "Glenn" <GlennShel...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mar 24, 1:16 pm, "chris.linthomp...@xxxxxxxxx"

<chris.linthomp...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mar 24, 4:04 pm, "Glenn" <GlennShel...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mar 24, 11:33 am, "chris.linthomp...@xxxxxxxxx"

<chris.linthomp...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mar 23, 10:33 pm, "Glenn" <GlennShel...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mar 22, 4:22 pm, "chris.linthomp...@xxxxxxxxx"

<chris.linthomp...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mar 21, 8:53 pm, "Glenn" <GlennShel...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mar 21, 5:03 pm, "chris.linthomp...@xxxxxxxxx"

<chris.linthomp...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mar 18, 12:32 am, "Glenn" <GlennShel...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

http://www.thecamarilloacorn.com/news/2007/0316/Community/016.html

"Evolution is not a theory- it's a process. Fossil records prove that
evolution is true," said Clint Harper, an agnostic who teaches physics
and astronomy at Moorpark College."

"The college has been hosting a yearlong series of events about
science and religion to spark debate."

"When comparing science to religion, I tell my students: Religion gave
you 9/11, takes your money every Sunday and wastes part of your
weekend . . . science gave you antibiotics, iPods and cellphones. Take
your pick," Harper said."

Religion in physics and astronomy class! Who'd a thunk. Take your pick.

Hey Glenn, where did it say that it was presented in class?

Where do you think he tells *his* students? In "event" class?

In case you didn't read *what you quoted*, it says:

"The college has been hosting a yearlong series of events about
science and religion to spark debate."

It sounds to me like this quote was taken from one of those events,
not the physics or astronomy class.

And what would that matter? He is a teacher, telling his students

You're a laugh a minute, Glenn. Are you telling me that it's the same
thing to tell students his personal views on science and religion
during a school sponsored debate, probably in the student union or a
theater, and telling the same thing during an Astronomy class, when he
should be describing the Main Sequence? If you're saying that, Glenn,
if you're really saying there's no difference between those two
things, then you're acting more mentally defective than usual.

So you think debating is telling personal views. The quote was "I tell
my students", and he is their science teacher, somewhat of an
authority figure. In or out of class, if it is on school time, he's
still a science teacher.

If it's out of class, it isn't on school time, it's on his time.

The event is on school time.

No, Glenn. If he's not in class, it is his own time.

The event, as I showed you, is part of the curriculum. Your blanket

Nonsense. Where is it part of a curriculum?

What part of "seeks to facilitate" or "mission is to provide" do you
not understand? How about the word "integrate", familiar with that?

You don't seem to understand what is meant by a curriculum. A
curriculum is a course of study. It is the body of coursework-
required classes and electives- that make up a student's obligation.
There's nowhere in the description that these yearlong events are part
of any curriculum.

Apparently you don't understand what "part of the curriculum" means.
Something like "part of the course of study" should have hit you. And
I've already provided you with the references. The topic is to be
integrated into the class coursework.



statement is just plain foolish and wrong, and you know it. A teacher
can't do anything on school grounds that he could in church (on his
own time), for example.

You're quite mistaken Glenn. When not in class, within the bounds of
propriety, the prof. can do pretty much anything he/she could do
anywhere else. Do you forget that I live that reality every day? I
think I know a little more about this than you do.

If you aren't a complete idiot then, you should know this isn't a
clear cut case of "a teacher can do anything on school grounds that he
can do off campus" crap. You can insert teacher for student there as
well.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-scotus20mar20,1,...

This, of course, is a complete non sequitur. One, it is a high
school, and we (or I, at least) are discussing the college part of
Moorpark.

Forgot your speech about public money?

Second, the students had been dismissed from school to
watch the torch go by. Third, it didn't happen on school grounds. The
principal had no legal standing to confiscate the banner or suspend
the student, and it's a clear violation of the student's First
Amendment rights.

Well I won't bother checking that out. If it didn't happen on school
grounds, then I would agree with you, of course. But if it did, the
relevant point would not be whether school had been dismissed, but
whether it was school sponsored. Were it an after hours non-school
event, I would agree.


Why don't you try wearing a teeshirt with "Bong hits for Jesus" around
campus, dude.

No reason i shouldn't. I wouldn't get in trouble for it, I can assure
you.

How is that convincing? Argument from authority? Aren't we in the
hallway now?

http://www.moorparkcollege.edu/yearof/

"Contemporary debates including intelligent design and stem cell
research are relevant to Moorpark College students and staff, for they
come up in classes as well as in discussions with friends and
families."

I presume you'll stay with the teacher describing the Main Sequence in
class.

Of course they come up. And if specifically asked for his views, he
can tell them. But there's no indication that he was expounding his
views in class, which is where it matters, and there's every
indication, given the construction of the paragraph, that he was
telling them at one of these events, which is permissable.

"I tell my students" gives every indication that he was telling his
students, Chris. And "at one of these events" is school sponsored;
that doesn't give him the right to prosetylize.

Sure it does Glenn. That's why you see groups like Campus Ministry for
Christ at school-sponsored events. And they're allowed to be there.
Why would you want to ban those groups from school-sponsored events?

Well, as far as I know, Campus Ministry for Chist isn't a teacher,
Chris. I don't want to ban outside groups from speaking, clearly they
are not part of the school and don't reflect the school position. Of
course, there are guidelines you may want to read:

http://www.moorparkcollege.edu/yearof/guidelines.pdf

"I will not proselytize or seek members to join any group.."

That's nice. While the astronomy prof might be guilty of denigrating
all religions, there's no problem with any of the others. He certainly
isn't prosletyzing!

You must be joking. "X will kill you, Y will save you" isn't
prosletyzing? "Get saved or go to hell"?

"X will kill you"? Where was that in the article Glenn? Are you making
things up?

Uh, yes, those are examples. Not completely out in left field though,
9/11 proved to be harmful to the health of some, and impacted many
others throughout the country.

In fact, fire and brimstone preachers pass through colleges all the
time. I bet there are even some state college or community college
profs in the Bible Belt who are part-time preachers themselves, and I
bet the preside over campus services. You seem to be in favor of
banning that, while I would fight such a move. Why do you hate the
First Amendment?

And those preachers are teachers on school grounds on school time?
You've had too many strikes, Chris.


This is a school event, requiring students participation.

Requiring? Where does it say students are required to participate?

Directing teachers to integrate the topic into class doesn't hit your
apparent sole remaining brain cell?

If individual instructors do so, I guess that mandates participation
on the part of the students. That's not the same thing as requiring
them to participate in the conference, which was the topic at hand.
You'll need more than a supposition that some instructor MIGHT do
something at some nebulous future time to get me worried.

Actually, that is the first time the word "conference" was used in the
thread. But I have provided more than a supposition, and you know it.

You've amazed me once again, Chris. You apparently think that teachers
in the hallway during school hours can get away with violating the 1st
amendment.

If you don't think teachers are authorities at all times in school, I
repeat, you should get a job that better suits you, before you mess
yourself or someone else up.

Of
course there's a difference. The former is an example of the free
speech that's supposed to be found on university campuses, the latter
is an egregious violation of the separation of churh and state- if the
college is a state college, or if it receives federal grant money. The
former is plainly his opinion, the second is using the power of the
lectern in an inappropriate manner. While college students are
generally considered not as much of a captive audience as grade-
schoolers or high school students, I still think it's entirely
inappropriate for the prof. to tell his students there's no god.

Moorepark is a public community college, with a high school. You think
this event creates provides the opportunity for science teachers to
tell their students anything they wish?

Instructors CAN tell students anything they wish, outside of class,
within the bounds of propriety.

No, instructors can't. Individuals can, but even then it's a touchy
subject concerning teachers. Students are provided more freedoms than
teachers, and rightly so.

Out of class, college instructors interacting with students are adults
interacting with other adults Glenn.

You've agreed with me, "adults" acting as individuals, not as
teachers. Again, your logic would allow a community college teacher

...

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