Re: Evolutionary question concerning God.

On 13 Sep 2006 04:34:57 -0700, in talk.origins , "someone2"
<glenn.spigel2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> in
<1158147297.000796.195270@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Matt Silberstein wrote:
On 12 Sep 2006 18:03:10 -0700, in talk.origins , "someone2"
<glenn.spigel2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> in
<1158109390.470216.299860@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Matt Silberstein wrote:
On 11 Sep 2006 07:59:27 -0700, in talk.origins , "someone2"
<glenn.spigel2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> in
<1157986767.501813.59100@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Stanley Friesen wrote:
"someone2" <glenn.spigel2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Ross Langerak wrote:
The experience doesn't affect the biochemistry, it IS the biochemistry.
Deprive the brain of oxygen and you lose consciousness. Take LSD and your
perception of the world changes. Alter the DNA that affects the development
of the brain and you alter consciousness.

You say it is the biochemistry, could you explain, what part of the
biochemistry is green?

Why do all the properties of consciousness have to be directly present
in the substrate of consciousness? Consciousness, along with all of its
properties, is an *ensemble* process - a product of the *organization*
of the lower level components. There is no simple unitary mapping of
percepts onto biochemistry because percepts are not fundamental
properties, they are derived properties.

--
The peace of God be with you.

Stanley Friesen

Do you agree that our conscious experience takes information ultimately
derived from a large set of neurons simultaneously?

No, our consciousness is a whole bunch of neurons over time.

Yes over time, but we experience the information derived from a large
set of neurons simultaneously surely, or are you suggesting that our
consciousness receives an input update from one neuron at a time?

Neither, I am pointing out that it does not make sense to try to
freeze the action. The consciousness is not a state of the neurons, it
is the process over time of those neurons.


So you are saying that although we only experience in the 'now', that
some of what we experience may be based upon the state of a neuron in
the past?

No, I am just trying to emphasize that this "consciousness" is not
some static brain state, but the dynamic actions of those components
(which are not just neurons).

If you do, are you saying that while our conscious experience receives
this information, there is nothing physically detectable that links all
these neurons simultaneously?

The neurons are rather physically detectable.

Yes and their firing is obviously important to communicate to adjacent
neurons their state. What is the physical underlying that collates the
states of the various neurons?

Why do you think there is some physical process collating those
states? Consciousness is not a report on the firing, consciousness is
the various things going on in parts of the brain (of which the firing
is only part).

Because our consciousness involves experiences that are based on a
collation of neural states.

Our consciousness is the (partial) sum of those neurons, it is not
"based" on it, it is it. There is no need to assert some third party
collator.

I realise that neurons firing is important, but surely that only
explains communication to adjacent neurons.

And that communication and other dynamic state information is the
stuff we perceive.

How are you suggesting that the raw experience of one set of neurons,
linked to the eyes for example is visual, and yet the raw experience of
another set of neurons, linked to the ears for example is auditory?

Why not? You have some sort of problem with that but I don't know why.

Well why does one set of neurons cause a visual experience and another
an auditory experience?

Different neurons near other different neurons with different chemical
sensitivities and connected to different nerves. You have the
quasi-arbitrary groupings, visual and auditory, and seem to look for
some essential physical difference. The physical difference is there,
but it is not something big and grand, it is small like placement and
such. As I understand it the neurons go through a selective process
early on as they "learn" to react to the nerves.


So are you saying that neurons are experienced differently according to
where they are found in the brain?

Is this news to you?

That there is a visual section, and
a neural section, and that neurons that are involved in our conscious
experience somewhere in between might be experienced as a combined
audio visual experience?

Of course. Did you not know that we can locate various aspects of
mentation to specific areas of the brain? Start here:

List of regions in the human brain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_in_the_human_brain


So what we experience was dependent no just on the topological
interconnections of the neurons, but very tightly linked to their
actual location in space, is that what you are suggesting?

I am suggesting that you have lots of reading to do on this topic.



--
Matt Silberstein

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.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Jeff Hawkins Q&A
    ... >Although you shouldn't conclude that where the stimulus ... >starts is where the consciousness experience resides. ... There is no doubt that the brain is part of the consciousness ... between neurons and the fact they are performing ...
    (comp.ai.philosophy)
  • Re: Evolutionary question concerning God.
    ... I realise that neurons firing is important, ... How can the connections effect how the neurons states are experienced, ... This wording still differentiates between "consciousness" and "a subset ... of brain activity" in an artificial and meaningless way. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: What does this have to do with electronics?
    ... and fields and communications channels among the neurons. ... There are patterns to the electrical signals in your brain. ... that still doesn't try to explain what this "consciousness" ... doesn't invalidate anything that you already know - it simply ...
    (sci.electronics.design)
  • Re: Evolutionary question concerning God.
    ... Matt Silberstein wrote: ... Deprive the brain of oxygen and you lose consciousness. ... our consciousness is a whole bunch of neurons over time. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Electromagnetic theory of consciousness
    ... I don't understand how consciousness could be a 'relationship'  -- ... So the neurons work through electrical stimulus (only one mechanism, ... In the brain the overall field effect of the electrical activity will ... To put it simply, we'd need to find a geometry, even if it is a very ...
    (uk.philosophy.humanism)
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