Re: Evolutionary question concerning God.


VoiceOfReason wrote:
someone2 wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote:
On 13 Sep 2006 16:14:09 -0700, in talk.origins , "someone2"
<glenn.spigel2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> in
<1158189249.668954.110660@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Matt Silberstein wrote:
On 13 Sep 2006 11:41:44 -0700, in talk.origins , "someone2"
<glenn.spigel2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> in
<1158172904.528612.106690@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Matt Silberstein wrote:
On 13 Sep 2006 04:34:57 -0700, in talk.origins , "someone2"
<glenn.spigel2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> in
<1158147297.000796.195270@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Matt Silberstein wrote:

[snip]

That there is a visual section, and
a neural section, and that neurons that are involved in our conscious
experience somewhere in between might be experienced as a combined
audio visual experience?

Of course. Did you not know that we can locate various aspects of
mentation to specific areas of the brain? Start here:

List of regions in the human brain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_in_the_human_brain


So what we experience was dependent no just on the topological
interconnections of the neurons, but very tightly linked to their
actual location in space, is that what you are suggesting?

I am suggesting that you have lots of reading to do on this topic.


Did you understand what I mean't by the experience not being dependent
on just the topological interactions of the neurons, but very tightly
linked to their actual location in space?

If that is true, which I doubt, but if it is, then it adds to the proof
that I am saying. Evolution would only have cared about the topological
connections, because that is all that would effect function, if it is
true that the spacial location of the neuron effects how it is
experienced then surely it has to be a massive coincidence.

I don't see how evolution would only "care" about topology and not
location. You really do need to learn about how the brain works. The
neurons "learn" to connect to the various inputs and such. You should
stop now and go and do lots of reading on this.



Because only the connections can be relevant to function, assuming the
brain functions by intercellular communication.

Connections are important, but you were talking about topology. The
connections in the brain are interesting and do, in fact, give
evidence of evolutionary history. The cells in the visual cortex do
connect with each other and with the optic nerve.

Anyway the original post was a proof based on current scientific
understanding which is:

1) Intracell activity (activity within the cells) can be explained in
terms of our current understanding of physics and chemistry.

2) Emergent cell behaviours, such as the kidney or liver, can be
explained in terms of the intracell activity of the cells that make
them up, and intercell activity (activity between the cells). Both
intracell and intercell activity can be explained in terms of our
current understanding of physics and chemistry.

3) Emergent cell behaviours, such as the brain, can be explained in
terms of the intracell activity, and intercell activity (activity
between the cells), of the cells that makes it up. Both intracell and
intercell activity can be explained in terms of our current
understanding of physics and chemistry.

I understand you might not agree with the above three,

I do, however. With a caveat, though. "Can be explained" does not mean
"we can currently explain".

but because of
them, it means that if the organisms behaviour can indeed be explained
purely with intracell and intercell activity without referring to
conscious experience other than describing workings of the brain that
you think causes it, then your conscious experience is irrelevant to
the way the organism behaves,

Sorry, but that does not follow. The conscious experience is the
working of the brain, it is one of those emergent behaviors.

it would be coincidental that evolution
caused the brain to be put together such that an experience of it made
sense, and a deception that your experience has the slightest influence
over the way the organism behaves, you could have experienced anything,
it wouldn't have mattered.

None of that follows.



--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

You could stop all the wars, and create equality and justice on Earth,
if the leaders would just answer the question:

If every other leader was prepared to join together and build Heaven on
Earth, would you?

At least then we would know what kind of leaders we had, and why follow
a leader who is just out for themselves, and doesn't believe the people
entrusted to their care deserve Heaven on Earth.

I was thinking, if people cut and pasted this into a mail and posted it
to people they knew, then there would be more of a chance of it getting
to a journalist who could ask the question at a press conference, and
therefore there would be more chance of the leaders answering it, and
thus we would be making the world a more honest place.

One problem with this is that different people's idea of "heaven" could
be mutually exclusive. One person's idea of heaven could be "all
members of the ACLU serve as slaves to the 'righteous.'"

Heaven on Earth is not just for the few.

You are right people would have different views, though they could all
live in different locales, and differences can be expressed within
their locale. Though they could all agree that for it to be Heaven on
Earth for all, it would be necessary for all to lead their lives
selflessly (i.e. not to be selfish). It could be made easier though by
getting rid of money, and looking at things in terms of supply and
demand, in recycling, in building a global production and supply
infrastructure to support the locales. We would have freed up people
directly involved in the handling of money, or the military, and yet we
would have their logistical skills. It wouldn't be a question of
worrying about people losing their jobs, the less people required to
run the system, the less time everyone has to put in. Automate as much
as possible I would think, robotics should be a key research area. The
more we can automate, the less we all have to work.

Some might not call this Heaven on Earth, I can see what you mean,
though presumably they would agree that it is a step in the right
direction, no more wars, a world in which no selfish act is committed
for profit, and no need to ever worry about money, everything is free,
though we can only produce what we can afford to take in terms of
resources available.

I'm sure if everyone looked at it unselfishly, that we could overcome
any problems and design a pretty wonderful Heaven on Earth. The selfish
can be seen for what they are, a hindrance.

.

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