Re: Book reviews: Darwin and ID

spintronic wrote:

josephus wrote:

spintronic wrote:


josephus wrote:


Manny Feld wrote:


josephus wrote:



I will spend some time and look at it. I dont know aht In vetro
evolution is. celestial mechanics is my bag.


It is? Then you must know that Newtonian Gravitation is just plain
wrong. It assumes an instaneous interaction between attracting masses
which cannot be the case if relativity theory is correct. Newtonian
physics has been falsified umpteen ways since Sunday during the last one
hundred and fifty years. Furthermore you know that Classical Mechanics
is just plain wrong because it is Galilean Invariant. That is not how
the world works. The Classical Theory is not a heuristic and you can use
it to navigate spaceships in a weak gravitational field but it is not
correct so it cannot be taken as a fundemental theory.

A correct theory would predict correct orbits. Newtonian gravitation
does not. Scientific theories are judged primarily by the quality of
their predictions.

Manny Feld


when Newton solved the two body problem for the first time in 1623,
he had to INVENT calculus. He was a careful and meticulus man. He
solved the problems presennted to him. He did not know about quantum
effects.

If you have ever worked with simulations. You should know that
gravity CANNOT be propagatged at the speed of light. it will introduce
a term of force that will cause orbits to precess wildly. Gravity is
instanteous. that is why Einstein is talking about deformation of
space. Gravity is mysterious and even relativity breaks down in
extreme environments. the difference is what is being calculated. You
mention GPS which needs relativistic corrections of signals. not
orbits. trivia-- the relativitist correction from the earth to the moon
is 3/4" at 384000 miles. light time corrections are usually added to
results.

just a question. Why do earth orbits of 45 degrees from the equator
-- why do those orbits process to equitorial?

any mathematics you propose would be to solve this question. can
you solve it? and what name is associated with a method of solution.
all of these problems were solved in the 18th century.

are you trying to say that all of this work is refuted? I dont think so.


physics is a science like biology. there are THEORIES to describe know
data. new theories replace them. Einstein proposed a new interpetation.
He did not say newton was wrong.
There are known limitations in newtonian dynamics. quantum effects
are not newtonian.

JPL calculates the ephemris for the astronomical journal. they use
relatavistic processes to step the orbits. in the interest of
increased accuracy, you get involved with the defination of the meter,
the second and the liter. L S M. the astomomical units are AU, day
and Sun. That is why the astonomical journal uses these units, not
meter, seconds and Liters. I know about TBD.

The implicit methods in the Astonomical journal are not physics they are
computational.


for the record Forest Moulton is newtonian, Celestial Mechanics
1910, Bate Mueller and white,Fundamentals of Astrodynamics 1964
newtonian, A E Roy Orbital Motion newtonian. 1980. Robin M Green
Sperical astronomy 1984-- relativitstic and Robin uses newtonian
solutions for specific pruposes. it is not left out. and Robin talks
about the differences. when discussing signal propagaion Robin uses
relatavistic mehtods.


josephus



Josephus; gravity is propegated at C. Newton does not predict correct
orbits, mercurys for instance,


That is not in evidence. Historically the question has been
whether gragity was instintaneous or propagated. It was my
understanding that a concensus thought it was institaneous. I know
Einstein thought so. I point out that curved spacetime as gravity
cannot propate in a simple sense. gravity waves can exist and they
travel at the speed of light, but gravity itself does not. Whatever it
does it is it is very,very fast.

You speak as if the elements of an orbit give different values for
Venus and Earth. advance of the perihelion is a feature of orbits.
however the effects are totally swamped by secular motions. You cannot
determine any advance. there are relativistic effect but they are very
small. this is why newtonian methods are adequate to a high degree.


just a question. Why do earth orbits of 45 degrees from the equator
-- why do those orbits process to equitorial?

I could solve it, but i dont understand the question.

ok the orbits precess to equitorial. the problem was why did that
happen. Send me the algorithm, the mathematics or the program that
solves the problem. We can talk about limitations if you can do that.
This is on topic. I say there are no limitations in the solution. This
problem was known to Newton.


Newton was incomplete; Einstein was incomplete; QM is incomplete. Which
was my whole point.

Incompleteness is a feature of science. WE DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING.
our theories, newtonian physics was known to have limitations -- lets
call them deficits. dont forget it was the tool that was used for 300
years to find the effects that Einstein calculated. the calculus is the
mathematics which is not the theory but the tool to describe the physics.

So back to what we was talking about, and stop

being sidetracked.



I looked at that web page and it looks like wishful thinking. I know
some organic chemistry, and I have no idea how a genetic anything could
be used in that chemistry. There were no details about what chemicals
were invoved.

I associate the word evolution with living units. not chemisty.
I justthink they wish to use a fancy word. And they are a little
unproffesional.
josephus

josephus


Josephus, Einstein KNEW gravity was propegated at C. About the
precession, if its what i think you mean. it would be due to the
conservation of angular momentum of the planetary orbit around the sun.
As the planet travells round the sun. this orbit forms a plane, any
orbital around the planet would incline to follow this plane as not to
do so would exert a torque on the orbital bringing it in line with the
equitorial. Just solve for a centrepetal force in the orbital plane
away from the sun, add the vectors of this force, and the orbitals to
show the direction of procession, and the rate. If its what i think you
mean.

If science doesnt know everything, just admit that, and tell people to
stop calling evolution a proven theory. Simple!



actually the way it works is a satelite in a slant of 45 degrees has a solution as an elispe. but the forces on that elipse have an effect due to the bulge of the earth. It pulls on the exteema of the elipse. it causes the orbit to change. it will cycle down to an equitorical orbit. those forces are resolved using newtonian equations. the solution does not have any residuals.

I can provide the math if it would clarify some point.

I have no problem with the fact that questions exist. but a creatist claim that god is in the things we dont understand is not the same as not knowing everthing.

there are major programs of research at the edges of understanding. Science is INTERESTED in the things we dont know or dont understand.
I used to have a book about that. I dont remember the name. but it was about the things we DONT KNOW.

Theries are not simply discarded, they are incorprated. this means the new paradgign has to cover ALL of the same material. Relativity predicted gravitational lensing. Newton does not. The reason Newtdon theory does not include quantum effects is because Issac Newton DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THEM. I am pretty sure that Newton would have provided a mathematical theory to cover it. He was that good. He INVENTED calculus. And Newtonian physics was used for 300 years. It is not exactly wrong. But there are KNOWN limitations.

On the otherhad Relativity ALSO has limitations. known problems.
having limitations does not prevent doing useful work.

josephus

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Book reviews: Darwin and ID
    ... josephus wrote: ... Then you must know that Newtonian Gravitation is just plain ... A correct theory would predict correct orbits. ... gravity CANNOT be propagatged at the speed of light. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Book reviews: Darwin and ID
    ... Then you must know that Newtonian Gravitation is just plain ... which cannot be the case if relativity theory is correct. ... A correct theory would predict correct orbits. ... gravity CANNOT be propagatged at the speed of light. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Doubts about relativity dogmas
    ... It is not a myth - Newtonian Gravity is wrong. ... If original theory was wrong, taking the Newtonian limit of GR would ... of general relativity is erroneously stated as if the speed of light c ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Book reviews: Darwin and ID
    ... Then you must know that Newtonian Gravitation is just plain ... which cannot be the case if relativity theory is correct. ... A correct theory would predict correct orbits. ... gravity CANNOT be propagatged at the speed of light. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Doubts about relativity dogmas
    ... It is not a myth - Newtonian Gravity is wrong. ... If original theory was wrong, taking the Newtonian limit of GR would ... of general relativity is erroneously stated as if the speed of light c ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)