Re: Neanderthal vs Cro-Magnon


Tom McDonald wrote:
Ken Shackleton wrote:

<snip>

One thing that I seem to think about when the discussion goes to the
subject of the Cro-mags spreading across Europe into the domain of the
Neandertal is the possible make-up of the group of Cro-mags. Now....we
can only speculate about the temperment of the Neandertal, but I would
guess that the Cro-mag would be very similar to us.

As a group of Cro-mags is roaming into new territory, who would be
leading the way? What I mean is, who would be on point, so to speak? I
would think that it would be the teenaged males of the group....they
have the energy and the drive to run ahead of the main group of adults
and small children.

I don't think their movement into Europe was a movement of people into
new, previously unknown territory.

Let's say that a Hss group is established in a particular place for a
few generations. For them, this would be their home range. They would
be very familiar with it, including its edges. They would probably have
established a seasonal round, focused mostly on the availability of
gathered plant material. Now think a different year, a drier year, or a
wetter, or a colder or hotter. Let's say that in a usually-productive
area, the weather caused a food plant failure.

But wait! Nigel and Alexandra know of a valley not far from the failed
patch, but a league further than the group usually roamed. (Let us not
ask how they know of this place; modesty requires we draw a curtain
over that question.) With no one else using the valley, it becomes part
of their range.

Let's say that what might be considered the front wave of Hss expansion
into Europe operated this way, and on average this front moved a
kilometer a year. Not far, for a h/g population. To the folks then, it
would seem like they had always lived where they were. Generations
would be born, grow, reproduce and die in essentially the same place.

What migration? Yet this is probably how, in a matter of a couple-few
thousand years, Hss infiltrated what had been Hsn lands.

I also imagine that the teenagers of the day were pretty much as they
are today....except they would have had spears and probably a pretty
strong cautionary reaction to anyone that they did not know.

Neandertals would look freakish to us...so I find it hard to believe
that our ancestors would not have routinely run them through on
sight...just for fun if not out of fear.

I doubt they often ran across each other; and really doubt there was
much running-through done. If there were, my money would be on the
Neanders. Smaller target, more powerful thrusting/throwing arms, and
equivalent technology.

Neandertals show a bone breakage pattern most closely resembling rodeo
riders. They also have a smaller frontal lobe than Hss, which may have
had the effect that reduced blood flow to that lobe has on Hss--viz,
;what we call attention deficit disorder. (Don't get me started!)

They were also extremely hearty wrt skeletal structure, bone size and
muscular strenght. Together, this suggests to me (and maybe only to me)
that they may have hunted game up-close and personal, including pretty
big stuff. They may have had great joy in it, although that is more
obviously projection on my part.

These guys were not gentle mountain gorrila analogs. They may well have
been gentle; but they could be cowboys when the opportunity arose.

No, all things considered, I'll take the Neandertals in that
confrontation. :-)

Anyway...perhaps it didn't happen that way...we may never know for
sure. But it is pretty conclusive that modern humans have a long track
record of being associated with massive extinction events whenever we
first appear in any new locale.

That's true to some extent. However, association is not causation.
There is robust research going on into human-adjacent extinctions. Much
of it suggests our crew mighta got railroaded.

I think before tribal/ethnic/species warfare would have erupted, there
would have to be a perception of a "threat" posed by the other species.
As others have noted, while we may have shared territories, it seems
our hunting and gathering strategies were different. Unless we competed
over a local kill, maybe the groups just tended to avoid eachother?

Of course, if during a time of environmental stress and a "bad year"
for local game, might a Neanderthal have decided that stealing food
from the Cro-magnons was easier than trying to hunt for himself? That
would certainly have led to some strife.

I'm curious whether ancient stories of Neanderthal encounters might
have been passed down as legends of trolls, etc.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Neanderthal vs Cro-Magnon
    ... Neandertal is the possible make-up of the group of Cro-mags. ... Neandertals would look freakish to us...so I find it hard to believe ... There is another school of thought, that of Milford Wolpert who argues that Hn merged genetically with Hss and still lives on as part of the genome of modern man. ... The Neanderthals occupied a huge area of Western and Central Europe for some 200,000 years. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Neanderthal vs Cro-Magnon
    ... Neandertal is the possible make-up of the group of Cro-mags. ... I don't think their movement into Europe was a movement of people into ... Let's say that what might be considered the front wave of Hss expansion ... Neandertals show a bone breakage pattern most closely resembling rodeo ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Neanderthal vs Cro-Magnon
    ... Running Away would seem the ideal strategy ... The cro-mags were better runners. ... A third, and perhaps critical, thing it means is that sapiens was much ... Neandertals may have been doomed because they were not as well adapted ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Neanderthal vs Cro-Magnon
    ... The cro-mags were better runners. ... A third, and perhaps critical, thing it means is that sapiens was much ... why Hss should have been superior to Hsn in surviving in ... Neandertals would look freakish to us...so I find it hard to believe ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Article: Neanderthals Grow Fast, Die Young
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    (sci.anthropology.paleo)