Re: Darwinism causes people to stop loving each other

stew dean wrote:
wf3h wrote:

come to new york and you'll see what i mean as well. i wish i had your
view of US foreign policy, and of arabs...

I lived in New York for six months. It's not as multicultural as London
and the cultures are less mixed.

to a certain point, true. but also irrelevant.

Culturally it's lost it's spark and
from once being the centre of the world it now feels more like a faded
hero. This is just a personal view but one I've heard others share.

??where's THAT coming from? relevance?

The currently 'war on terror' is a positioning game for the US as it
tries to work out a way to stay in the number 1 power slot,

any other cliches you want to toss out?

Sure - which ones do you want? How about one of the main reasons for
the recent action was for oil. That's a good cliche.

yep. a cliche. no truth to it...but that hasn't stopped its use...

Whooo there. No truth to it? Are you nuts?

well THAT was certainly dead nuts on with the facts...

Seriously if you don't
think this conflict was at least in part about oil then what do you
think it was about?

well let's see. we used to have troops in saudi arabia. SA has more oil
than iraq. SA's oil infrastructure is more developed and more modern
than iraq's and has more capacity. and it's cost us hundreds of
billions in iraq....with iraq's oil being under UN control...

yes. i can see why you'd believe it's about oil. you have no facts to
support your position...which is about the only consistent thing about
your position...

It wasnt about regime change and it wasnt about
9/11 and it wasnt about weapons of mass distruction that where of no
threat to the US anyway. What was (or is) it about?

it was about the most powerful force in the arab world being

1. thought to have WMD's (even though that was wrong)
2. having plans to implement WMD programs when the UN inspectors left

this racist analysis of US
foreign policy, of course, completely exculpates genocidal islamist
ideology from any role at all..

Nope - the extreme aslamists are a small group of nutters

proof? a recent poll showed 7% of british muslims support terrorism.

Hate to get all Clinton on you but how do you define terrorism? If it's
blowing folks up with bombs then you have to start wondering why. Many
of this group will have university educations.

ah. why. seems you think WESTERNERS (specifically americans) are
capable of murder and fascist ideas...but arabs arent

ever worked with arabs? do you think they're stupid?

a population of 1.5M that's quite a few. and daniel pipes seems to
think that those who support terrorism number, worldwide, between
10-30%. the fact that MAJORITIES in jordan and morocco supported bin
laden until the bombings in amman indicate that islamist fundamentalism
has ALOT more support than just a 'few nutters'. and, then, there's
always pakistan...

I think you're confusing terroirsm with armed resistance. There are a
lot of shades of grey here. What is the difference between an military
attack and an act of terrorism?

a military attack is:

1. done by a government
2. done by uniformed soldiers
3. is readily recognized as an armed attack

an act of terror is

1. done by 'civilians'
2. against innocents
3. where the attackers blend back into the population
4. is done by NGO's

I'm not supporting terrorism but
trying to make you see this is not a black and white issue.

i agree. yet you seem to think it is. you think that ONLY westerners
are to blame and that arabs can ONLY REACT to instigations...

It's not a
bunch of terrorists on one side and 'us' on the other. There are a lot
of people in this world hate the American administration, I would say
it's easily a majority.

there are alot of us here in the US who despise it as well...and yet
the terrorists

1. have plotted against canada

what did canada do to earn the hate of muslims?

2. have plotted against the US BEFORE bush

3. have plotted against almost EVERY western govt including france for
the 'crime' of prohibiting women from wearing the hijab

I would say that hatred has spilled over to
the UK as well. In many cases it's not the people of the US but the
way the country is run. If many support violence as a way to subvert
the foriegn policy of that administration then should we be suprised?

and tell me what the people of canada did to make them a target? what
made islamists want to murder the PM and MP's in canada? when rushdie
published his book was was targeted for murder, was it HIS fault?

who are made
stronger by certain goverments actions and in some cases have lived on
US money. It's a case of two wrongs, much like most current conflicts.
As a result many peaceful and innocent people get killed whilst the
power hungry and extreme play their games.

ever read sayyid qutb? abdullah azzam? al zawahari? ever hear of the
kharijites? the salafis? what makes you think YOUR analysis is correct?

It's my view based upon limited information. And no I havnt read those
sources. I see games being played, ones that many take deadly

this idea that arabs are so stupid they can only REACT to western
actions is simplistic in the extreme.

It is a very stupid idea yes, not one I support. I think you where just
trying to build a strawman but failed.

really? then how to explain that 9/11 was planned while clinton was
president? the facts dont support your chomskyist notion of history.

Easy now. I'm not a knee jerk lefty who secretly wishes for revolution.
9/11 was an attack on the US. I don't say for a second it was
justified. Those murdered where innocent civilians - but what game was
being played that lead to this happening? It will have been because of
some element of foreign policy.

uh, no. it's because contemporary islam, like contemporary
christianity, contains a large component of romantic absolutism that is
not subject to reason. to portray arabs as victims, without giving them
the 'credit' for inventing fascist ideologies is a form of

Let me put it another way. Why was 9/11 an attack on the US and not an
attack on, say, Australia. Also I am not portraying the arabs as
victums, another strawman you're attempting.

because if WE fall, so do you. do you think islamists will stop with
the US? if you haven't read qutb, you'd better start because your
romantic notions of the sweet and loving, gentle islamist, valiantly
defending his homeland against rapacious americans is simply not true.

I wish I knew, but this
'war on terror' thing appears to be politics and continued games, not
the protection of the innocent. Please don't give a predictable
responce, suprise me.

it's not a 'continued game' at all. islamist fascism exists. its first
victims are muslims, especially women and gays.

Okay then I can say christian fascism exists as well. The victims
likewise are women and gays. I'm not taking sides and do not see one
side as wrong and one side as right.

i absolutely agree. and THAT'S where i am consistent and YOU are not.
because to me, bush and bin laden, while differing in DEGREE and in
METHODS have the same GOAL...bush couldnt care less about foreign
policy. his goal is to allow the US to be christianized. creationism is
just another variation of religious fanaticism....whether christian or
islamist is irrelevant.