Re: To AC -- on electrons

r norman wrote:
On 10 Jun 2006 05:08:35 -0700, "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

NashtOn schreef:

John Harshman wrote:
Zoe wrote:

AC, sorry about the delay. You had asked me why I think electrons
exist. Here's why:

Even though electrons are not themselves observable, they apparently
have properties that can be observed. Some of these properties are
charge, spin, velocity, energy, position, and so on. By observation
of these properties, and through experimentation, scientists find it
reasonable to extrapolate the existence of the electron, and I accept
their extrapolation based on solid experiments.

It is also just as reasonable to extrapolate the existence of the
photon. While neither the electron nor the photon can be observed,
they are evident through their interaction with matter.
I would have thought that photons would be the only things we actually
can observe. But I suppose that what we really observe are nerve
impulses, or the pictures they summon up in our heads, eh?
You don't see photons, Harshman.
Then what _do_ do see, Oh great Grandpoobah, if it isn't the photons?


NashtOn is certainly an idiot but that doesn't me he can't
accidentally have an ounce of truth in what he posts.

Color me hurt.

John Harshman
got it right in saying that we claim to "see" is really the result of
nerve activity.

What we see is the result of associative regions of the brain that are hierarchically way above the mere depolarization of nerve cells caused by the initial chemical/physical stimulus at the mechanoreceptor/nociceptor level.

We just as easily "see" electrical stimulation of the
retina, the optic nerve, or visual regions of the brain. And even if
you want to argue that we really do "see" light, that doesn't mean we
actually observe photons. I "feel" the keys underneath my fingers as
I type but that doesn't mean that I am detecting individual atoms on
the keyboard. The more accurate statement is Zoe's: "While neither
the electron nor the photon can be observed they are evident through
their interaction with matter.".

Erm nope. They are part of matter. Photons have an infinitesimally low amount of matter, electrons *are* part of what we call matter.

Neither Zoe nor you have grasped that what you perceive is what your brain interprets and lets you perceive. Even that is temporary given that the CNS is essentially a novelty detector and once accommodation sets in, you perceive less and less until you perceive *nothing* even if you're staring at a bright object.

Even "photographs" of atoms are not
direct observation. They are representations of the way that atoms
interact with highly specialized and elaborate machinery presented in
a graphical form.

You need to read up on Heisenberg and abandon Bohr's atomic model. There are nothing but probabilities at the atomic level.

What's tremendously surprising is that most of you "scientists" are so clueless about definitions and simple notions of physics, you are arrogant enough to think that you have a grasp of anything you're babbling about.

Priceless.





--
Nicolas


"And, heaving alljawbreakical expressions out of Sare Isaac's universal of specious aristmystic unsaid, A is for Anna like L is for liv."
Finnegans Wake (293)

".... It means that all living things are the product of mindless material forces such as chemical laws, natural selection, and random variation. So God is totally out of the picture, and humans (like everything else) are the accidental product of a purposeless universe. Do you wonder why a lot of people suspect that these claims go far beyond the available evidence?" Phillip E.Johnson, The Church Of Darwin

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: To AC -- on electrons
    ... While neither the electron nor the photon can be observed, ... But I suppose that what we really observe are nerve ... You don't see photons, Harshman. ... Did you have any particular schmucks in mind, ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: To AC -- on electrons
    ... While neither the electron nor the photon can be observed, ... But I suppose that what we really observe are nerve ... You don't see photons, Harshman. ... Did you have any particular schmucks in mind, ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: To AC -- on electrons
    ... NashtOn schreef: ... While neither the electron nor the photon can be observed, ... But I suppose that what we really observe are nerve ... You don't see photons, Harshman. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: To AC -- on electrons
    ... While neither the electron nor the photon can be observed, ... they are evident through their interaction with matter. ... But I suppose that what we really observe are nerve ... You don't see photons, Harshman. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: New Cubic Atomic Model explains electron energy levels and bonding
    ... I am working towards a model of the atom ... > in fact just sitting static on the proton, ... > that one would expect an electron moving about the proton would ... we do observe the electron giving off the expected ...
    (sci.physics)
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