Re: Challenge for Darwinists - Protein Synthesis

Wall Of Sleep wrote:
SRNissen wrote:
Wall Of Sleep wrote:

SRNissen wrote:

Wall Of Sleep wrote:

SRNissen wrote:

Wall Of Sleep wrote:

Richard Forrest wrote:

Wall Of Sleep wrote:


So now you've redefined random mutation to include normal variation. No
wonder the "T"oE can't be falsified.






No he hasn't.

Normal variation is the range of different alleles present in the gene
pool of a population.

The source of this normal variation is mutation, which we know (because
we have done rather a lot of scientific research on the subject) is
random in respect of fitness.

If there were no mutation there would be no variation in the gene pool,
and we would all be clones.

Get it now?


No. I don't "get it". What evidence points to the variation in the gene pool of 'humans' as being the result of random mutations as opposed to the result of normal sexual reproduction? Is all sexual reproduction classified as "random mutation"? When the very first human 'couple' mated, they produced an offspring that differed from both of them. This was due to *normal* sexual reproductive process - not a "random mutation".




Random mutation is a part of "normal sexual reproductive process." Specifically, it is the part that makes two children from the same parents different. Kain was not Abel. Why? Mutation. If there was no mutation involved, all children of Adam and Eve would have been exactly alike in physical properties. That's what's to "get" in explanation.


I think not. I think the variation from parents (note the term is *plural*) to child is the result of *normal* sexual reproductive genetic combination - *not* random mutation. Variation is built into the process of sexual reproduction. It's not a "mutation". A mutation is a copying error - a mistake in genetic transfer, something that varies from normal genetic combination during sexual reproduction. If you are going to argue that the normal sexual reproductive process is the basis for the development of new features in sexually reproducing animals, you're arguing that these features are pre-existing - since all sexual reproduction does is combine the genetic makeup of two individuals into one unique individual.

Saying that that's "mutation" is a real watering down of the term mutation.



No, that is exactly what mutation means in the context of the theory of evolution. "normal sexual reproductive genetic combination" as you call it, is not a perfect process, and introduces mutations every time it is done.






I guess if you see the world through evolutionary colored glasses, some things seem self evident - but for those of us who are not so indoctrinated, this needs explaining. To my mind, a random mutation is an error - a mistake. It's the cause of disease and genetic *defects*. I've always understood it to be an *unintended* consequence. If you're going to classify the normal variation produced during sexual reproduction as "random mutation", then why is it commonly stated that most mutations are harmful?




That is only commonly stated by people who are attempting to refute the theory of evolution. Mutations average to a fitness-neutral survival advantage.


"Mutation:
Any heritable change in genetic material. This may be a chemical transformation of an individual gene (a gene or point mutation), which alters its function. On the other hand, this change may involve a rearrangement, or a gain or loss of part of a chromosome, which may be microscopically visible. This is designated a chromosomal mutation. Most mutations are harmful."
http://www.bio.hw.ac.uk/edintox/glossall.htm



Read for comprehension. You've quoted a glossary of effects of toxic chemicals. Yes, mutations caused by toxic chemicals are harmful, that's why we call them toxic chemicals. If you're exposed to enough mutagenic material to cause harmful mutation, you've caused a lot more mutations than are usually present during normal reproduction.

This is not some crazy idea, this is testable. Children have genes their parents don't. That's how it is.


"Mutation: Abrupt change in the genotype of an organism that is not the result of recombination.
Recombination: Formation in offspring of genetic combinations not present in parents."
http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/99/1.28.99/genomics/Glossary.html




Yes? That's exactly what I said.


No, it's not.

Notice the "not":
"Mutation: Abrupt change in the genotype of an organism that is *not* the result of recombination"

This is why I also included the definition for "Recombination".


You're still not reading for comprehension.

You wrote:

If you're going to classify the normal variation
produced during sexual reproduction as "random mutation", then why
is it commonly stated that most mutations are harmful?

_I_ wrote:

That is only commonly stated by people who are attempting to refute
the theory of evolution. Mutations average to a fitness-neutral
survival advantage.

and then _you_ quoted:

"Mutation: Abrupt change in the genotype of an organism that is not
the result of recombination.
Recombination: Formation in offspring of genetic combinations not
present in parents."

http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/99/1.28.99/genomics/Glossary.html

Which says absolutely nothing about whether mutations are dangerous. You quoted two other sites, one which said that mutations could be harmful, neutral or beneficial, which gives an average of fitness-neutral, and a site that said mutations were mostly harmful, but was using the "exposed to toxic chemicals" definition of mutation.

In conclusion, mutations are, on average, fitness-neutral.




"Mutation:
Any change in the DNA of a cell. Mutations may be caused by mistakes during cell division, or they may be caused by exposure to DNA-damaging agents in the environment. Mutations can be harmful, beneficial, or have no effect. If they occur in cells that make eggs or sperm, they can be inherited; if mutations occur in other types of cells, they are not inherited. Certain mutations may lead to cancer or other diseases."
http://www.stjude.org/glossary?searchTerm=M



Yes? That's exactly what I said.


No, you said that every instance of sexual reproduction introduces mutations. This says that only those mutations that occur in cells that make eggs or sperm are inherited.


... Those are not mutually contradictory statements.

Mutations must be in cells that make eggs or sperm to be carried on to the next generation.Mutations in cells that make eggs or sperm are very common. Thus, every instance of sexual reproduction introduces mutations. It really shouldn't be that hard to get.

Here, allow me:

"The average mutation rate was estimated to be approximately 2.5 x 10(-8) mutations per nucleotide site or 175 mutations per diploid genome per generation." - Estimate of the mutation rate per nucleotide in humans, M W Nachman and S L Crowell, Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, University of Arizona, Tucson, PMID 10978293

That's really where this debate should end. There are, on average, 175 mutations per diploid genome between each generation. You can whine about harmful mutations as much as you like, it's not going to change the fact that science pretty obviously shows that humans mutate. All the time.


OK you've made your point and I stand corrected - if the mutation rate per generation is really that high, then I was wrong. I'll have to look into this a bit more.

Uhm... Whoa. That's a whole new experience. I'm sorry I was being snarky further up, but I

Actually, "But I" nothing. I'm sorry I was being snarky further up.

- SRNissen
FABRICATE DIEM, PVNC

.

Relevant Pages

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  • Re: Challenge for Darwinists - Protein Synthesis
    ... Normal variation is the range of different alleles present in the gene ... If there were no mutation there would be no variation in the gene pool, ... Is all sexual reproduction classified as "random mutation"? ... "normal sexual reproductive genetic combination" as you call it, is not a perfect process, and introduces mutations every time it is done. ...
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