Re: Challenge for Darwinists - Protein Synthesis


Wall Of Sleep wrote:

Get it now?


No. I don't "get it". What evidence points to the variation in the
gene pool of 'humans' as being the result of random mutations as opposed
to the result of normal sexual reproduction?

Genes get spread through the gene pool by sexual reproduction. Mutation
creates new genes.

Is all sexual reproduction
classified as "random mutation"?

Oh, for crying out loud! Do you seriously not understand the
difference between sexual reproduction, which is the melding of genes
from two individuals, and mutation, which is something which affects
those genes?

When the very first human 'couple'
mated, they produced an offspring that differed from both of them.

There was no "first human couple". Evolution affects populations, not
individuals. There is a turnover of all the genes within the
individuals in a population. New genes are created by mutation. Other
genes are lost because they are selected against.

This is very, very basic stuff.

This
was due to *normal* sexual reproductive process - not a "random mutation".

I guess if you see the world through evolutionary colored glasses, some
things seem self evident - but for those of us who are not so
indoctrinated, this needs explaining.

This has nothing to do with "indoctrination". These are facts which
have been observed, measured and recorded for decades.
1) Mutations happen. Every human carries over a hundred mutations.
2) These mutations are neutral in respect of selective pressure.
Although some parts of the geneome are more subject to mutation than
others, the incidence of such mutations is not affected by selective
pressures from the envirionment.
3) Mutations are carried to the next generation by sexual reproduction.

Or do I have to go through the basics of what happens when DNA material
from sperm meets the DNA material in an egg?

None of this is "indoctrination" in any sense of the term.

To my mind, a random mutation is
an error - a mistake.

To your mind, perhaps. So what? You know very little about the subject,
as you confusion between sexual reproduction and mutation demonstrates.

It's the cause of disease and genetic *defects*.

It's also the cause of new characters in populations.

I've always understood it to be an *unintended* consequence.

There is no "intention", and more than an object "intends" to fall to
the ground if you release it.

If
you're going to classify the normal variation produced during sexual
reproduction as "random mutation", then why is it commonly stated that
most mutations are harmful?

a) You are confusing normal variation - which is the combination of
existing genes - with mutation - which is the creation of new genes.
b) Most mutations are neutral - they have no affect one way or another
on the individual. Of the remainder, some are harmful and some are
beneficial, but these are terms which can only be applied in reference
to the selective pressures of the environment in which the popuation
lives.


By your ever-shifting definitions,

Nobody, as far as I am aware, has changed any definition of gene,
mutation or sexual reproduction one iota.

most mutations are beneficial

Where on earth did you get this idea?

or
neutral

Which they demonstrably are, as all humans (and all other animals for
that matter) carry over a hundred mutations.

- since the normal variation produced by sexual reproduction
*usually* produces an offspring of equal or greater 'survivability' than
it's parents.

No it doesn't! It generally produces individuals of much the same
"survivability" as it's parents. If we ignore the effects of mutation,
all sexual reproduction does is recombine existing genes. It is
mutation which provides the novelty which, although generally negative
in it's effects, can occasionally provide characteristics which are
beneficial.

It's very confusing trying to follow your logic!

It might be less confusing if you were to take the time to read a basic
biology textbook so that you clarify in your mind that sexual
reproduction and mutation are completely different things.


I stand by my statement that because of such shifting-sand definitions
as these, the "T"oE cannot *ever* be falsified.


Frankly, who cares if you stand by your statement or not?

The definitions used by evolutionary biologists have not changed. It is
your fundamental lack of knowledge of basic biology which causes you
such confusion.


RF
--
"Are we to believe that mere chance can accomplish that which has proven
quite impossible for the enlightened scientist to achieve? I regard
that notion as absurd!" John A. Davison, Ph.D. - AN EVOLUTIONARY
MANIFESTO: A NEW HYPOTHESIS FOR ORGANIC CHANGE
http://www.uvm.edu/~jdavison/davison-manifesto.html

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Common ancestor between man and ape
    ... relates "mutation" to copying errors in genes. ... You don't want evidence, ... explained bit of reasoning from the evidence showing that humans and ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Part 1 (of 3): What are major aspects of evolutionary theory?
    ... > and there's about twice that space on average between genes. ... accounted for by SNPs and how much by everything else. ... Well each new mutation occurs in only a single individual, ... has very little chance of going extinct so long as the population ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Common ancestor between man and ape
    ... relates "mutation" to copying errors in genes. ... You don't want evidence, ... explained bit of reasoning from the evidence showing that humans and ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Challenge for Darwinists - Protein Synthesis
    ... Genes get spread through the gene pool by sexual reproduction. ... Actually, mutation *usually* produces new alleles (variants, ... hearing that they will believe in evolution when they see a cat give ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Part 1 (of 3): What are major aspects of evolutionary theory?
    ... > and there's about twice that space on average between genes. ... > events, or single mutations, than do the SNPs. ... with no weighting for higher degrees of polymorphism. ... If the probability of a mutation is in the ...
    (talk.origins)