Re: KT boundry event

On 19 Apr 2006 07:38:01 -0700, uraniumcommittee@xxxxxxxxx wrote in
<1145457481.817814.252520@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> :


Augray wrote:


On what basis do you claim that they've evolved too much to be called
dinosaurs?. I'm hard pressed to think of *any* trait possessed by
living birds that wasn't present in some bird living in the
Cretaceous.

That does not make them dinosaurs. Dinos are extinct.

So, even though you can't point to a trait that's unique to birds,
you're going to make the claim anyway?


To call birds 'dinosaurs' makes no more sense than calling them fish.
Birds used to be fish, but are no longer fish.

What do you base this claim on? You keep repeating it, but give no
evidence to back it up.

For one, birds' respiratory system is unique. It is not shared by any
other group.

Absolutely false. Theropod dinosaurs in all likelihood had a
respiratory system very similar to that of living birds. See:

O'Connor, P. M., & L. P. A. M. Claessens. 2005. Basic avian
pulmonary design and flow-through ventilation in non-avian
theropod dinosaurs. Nature 436:253-256.

The book referenced below states that bird respiratory system differes
from all other groups.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312310080/sr=1-1/qid=1145453804/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1737020-1779102?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books

Since that book, for the most part, contains reprints of Scientific
American articles from the last thirty years, I'd hardly consider it
to be up to date. Is there any particular article that you had in mind
to back your claim?


The use of language is somewhat arbitrary. 'Fish' as it is now used, is
applied to a certain class of water-dwelling creatures with gills,
though not to all water-dwelling creatures with gills, nor to all
water-dwelling creatures (though it was in the past applied to
water-dwelling creatures with lungs).

Some salamanders have gills and are water-dwelling, but are not classed
as fish.

Birds as a group are sufficiently different from dinosaurs as a group
to merit separate nomenclature, which is a fait accompli.

You've given a single trait which is incorrect. At what point to you
believe this trait supposedly evolved?

'Modern birds' are not 'dinosaurs'. They belong to the group
dinosauria, but that Latin name is not synonymous with the common name
'dinosaurs'.

That's news to me. What do you base it on? It also seems to be beside
the point. Are you saying that if I were to claim that birds belonged
to the group Dinosauria, would that alleviate your objections?


It is silly and pointless to reduce the number of distinctions.

It's not a case of reducing the number of distinctions, it's pointing
out that "birds are not dinosaurs" is an arbitrary distinction.

It's not any more arbitrary than the modern meaning of 'fish'. In the
past, 'fish'. could mean any water-dwelling creature.

But since the term "fish" is a colloquial term, it's hardly expected
to be precise. On the other hand, you've yet to tell me at what point
birds ceased being dinosaurs, and what you base that claim on.


Birds
are NOT dinosaurs; they are birds. Dinos are all extinct.

Birds are *indeed* dinosaurs, just as primates are mammals.

'Dinsosaurs' are all extinct.

That's an arbitrary claim.


'Birds' (i'e., modern birds) are
descended from a larger class of ancient birds, most of which died out
in the Cretaceous. All modern birds, even flightless ones, are desended
from flying Cretaceous birds.

I agree completely.


Birds originated among the earliest
dinosaurs, all of which were bipedal.

That's a very unique assertion. Can you back it up with evidence?

.

Relevant Pages

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