Re: Atheists are the biggest fools on Earth

On 2006-03-09, Jim Spaza <spaza9@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Ye Old One wrote:
On 6 Feb 2006 17:05:21 -0800, "Jim Spaza" <spaza9@xxxxxxxxx> enriched
this group when s/he wrote:


Ye Old One wrote:
On 23 Jan 2006 20:24:28 -0800, "Jim Spaza" <spaza9@xxxxxxxxx> enriched
this group when s/he wrote:

Sure. Aside from a Supreme Being, how else could the singularity of
the Big Bang be created?

It didn't need a cause.

Everything that occurs needs a cause.

And you know this how?

Common sense.

The problem with common sense is that it is not very common.

Don't think so? OK. Show me one thing...just
one...that exists today without having an underlying cause for its
existence. Or...show me one thing that has changed without their being
any cause for its change.

What caused your God?

If you are willing to grant an exemption from this law for your God, why
should we take your "common sense" seriously?

If there is no cause for an
event, then why did the event occur in the first place?

If not, then show me something that occurs anywhere in the universe
today without any cause.

The Big Bang.

Circular reasoning. You have to show that the Big Bang had no cause
for you to then use it as an example as something without a cause.

How can we discern the difference between something which is uncaused
and something which might have a cause too subtle for us to observe?

If you cannot provide evidence for such an assertion, then your idea
is without merit and can be disregarded as wishful thinking.

I would use something a little easier to discern than the Big Bang, say,
radioactive decay.

What are the odds that the expansion of the universe seems tweaked just
so as to allow matter to coallesce over 14 billion years yet fast
enough to prevent the universe from collapsing back onto itself?

I think you need to study the subject, there are some mistakes in that
paragraph.

I mean, what are the odds that the universe is expanding slow enough to
let once-disassembled matter combine to form stars and planets but fast
enough to prevent gravity from collapsing the universe?

In our universe it happened. That is all we can say.

Again, circular reasoning based on the unsupported assumption that the
universe came into being as you assert, which itself is based on
wishful thinking.

This might be more convincing if you presented evidence for your own
unsupported assumptions. You are basically saying that "your argument is
just as unfounded as my own", which may in fact be true, but it's hardly
a ringing endorsement of your own position.

Also, what are the odds that the strong nuclear force is just as we see
it? Too weak and a nucleus with more than one proton would not hold
together and hydrogen would be the only element in existence. Too
strong, as little as 1%, and hydrogen and elements heavier than iron
(formed in stars using hydrogen) would be rare.

Pardon???

The strong nuclear force holds subatomic particles together, right?
Well, if that force were either stronger or weaker by perhaps 1%, then
most, if not all, elements other than hydrogen or helium could not
exist. Just a coincidence, huh?

As has been patiently explained to you before (with little apparent
effect) you might imagine that if you are the sole survivor of a 1000-1
lottery, that there must have been something special about you, because
otherwise you wouldn't have survived. But the simple fact is that
somebody would have, and they would be just as entitled to believing that
they were special. Since everyone thinks they must be special, nobody is.

And of course, if all 1000 die, nobody is around to argue that they are
special.

What are the odds that this matter of this universe formed on its
own along with the gravitational and molecular forces which that
matter would need to form celestial bodies?

Evens, it either did or it didn't. We can see it did in our
universe we can have no knowledge of any other universe if it
exists.

But don't the odds of everything appearing this way and being stable
make you think twice about how it happened?

It doesn't matter what the odds are - it has happened in our
universe.

How could nature randomly place over 600 volumes of information
in every bodily cell?

It didn't. That information evolved.

Of all the possibilities including just dying off, the cell gains in
complexity over time. What are the odds?

Who can say - we just know it happened.


How could the first life form come about naturally and randomly
if science has been incapable of creating, using controlled
conditions, even the simplest life from lifelessness?

Given a world the size of ours, and the conditions of that early
period, reactions were going on millions of times a day. More than
likely, over the millions of years, there were many different
"life from none-life" events - it just happens that all life we
see today is descended from just one common ancestor.

So, given a few billion random attempts, we will create life from
non-life.

-- Bob.

Someday, we will create life from non-life. I don't doubt that.
What I am trying to ascertain is how nature did it and how we know
that nature did it.

We know the conditions, we know there was a long period of time
(maybe 500 million years) and we know there was a result - we are
here to prove that. -- Bob.

Mark

.

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