Re: funny creationsist
- From: "Jim Spaza" <spaza9@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: 2 Feb 2006 19:53:02 -0800
Mark VandeWettering wrote:
On 2006-01-17, Jim Spaza <spaza9@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Mark VandeWettering wrote:
On 2005-12-30, Jim Spaza <spaza9@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Bobby D. Bryant wrote:
On Thu, 29 Dec 2005, "Jim Spaza" <spaza9@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Let me ask you...if not for values that come from a Supreme Being,
then what is the source of one's non-religious value system?
From a thick layer of culture on top of whatever foundation evolution
provided, just like for religious value systems.
But I'm curious about the apparent assumption that the existence of
a Supreme Being adds meaning and values to life. Why so?
It's all about purpose. If we are here due to purely naturalistic
(chemistry, forces of nature) causes, then the question of "why I
exist" just doesn't have an unknown or zero answer. It would have a
null answer as the question itself is void of meaning.
If you were willing to believe that your creator can give your life
meaning, why are you unwilling to believe that you can do so for yourself?
As a limited, error-filled human, I am not qualified to give myself an
accurate meaning.
Why not? What makes you think that you have to be perfect to create
meaning? I mean really, who is going to fire you for incompetence?
You'd have to be perfect to create meaning as opposed to just
expressing a desire or opinion. And you'd have to be your own creator
in order to declare the reason for your existence. Anything else is
just a guess.
I didn't create myself. I don't exist outside of
time and space and cannot see the variables and dynamics needed to
establish meaning for my existence or anyone else's.
I didn't know that was required.
Without a Supreme Being, then how would you know that you or anyone has
a life of value?
Personal perspective?
That's just guessing.
That's all you are doing when you state your belief in God.
Nah! It's just like the inference used in proclaiming the theories of
evolution and abiogenesis, except in the area of theology.
Because you feel that way?
At the heart of it, that's all you really have.
Mark, there is more that you can tap into to find out.
Tried. Didn't work. Your God either exists and is a monster, or doesn't
exist. I choose to believe he doesn't exist. I'm cutting him a break.
If I die, and it turns out he does exist, I'm condemning him to an eternity
without me.
Sorry to hear you say that. Seriously. I am surprised that you
accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior...and NOTHING happened at all.
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." -
Romans 10:13
It would seem that an
atheist (and everyone else if there is no God) creates their own idea
of the value and meaning of life in the back of their mind.
As do you. You just won't admit to it.
I won't admit it because I don't believe as you do. Really.
You are simply fooling yourself.
And then, without a God, there are no standards of value and meaning as
a planet of 4 billion people could have 4 billion different ideas of
value and meaning.
Just as there is no wide concensus between Christians.
Yeah. It doesn't help a Christian's attempt to proclaim the Gospel
when half the Christians don't agree on what the Bible says sometimes.
It doesn't mean that the truth cannot be found out. It just makes the
evangelist's job that much harder.
The good things about Christian truths are that there are so many to choose
from!
No, sir. That's a bad thing. There are an infinite number of angles
at which you can lean and only one at which you can stand straight.
It's like this: the U.S. dollar has value because of the existence,
authority, and promise of the U.S. Government.
Actually, it has value because people are willing to exchange U.S. dollars
for goods and services. The government really has nothing to do with it:
they are just the agreed agent who creates the medium for exchange. Dollars
don't have any value which is derived from the authority of the government:
people could refuse to use them and the value of the dollar changes in
direct proportion (consider the market where the value of dollars relative
to other foreign currency is traded).
If the U.S. Government
suddenly ceased to exist, then the dollars that are in your pocket are
only worth whatever someone else agrees that they are worth.
That's really all they are worth anyway Jim.
All U.S.
currency immediately loses established, absolute value and is worth
only what your neighbor says it is worth, which may be nothing.
If we were in fact "designed" by space aliens, would that make life
more meaningful than if we evolved? Would we be obligated to adopt
whatever values they demanded of us? Should we feel obligated to
abide by whatever rules they happened to impose on us?
Made by aliens? Life would not necessarily have more meaning. We
would not feel obligated (or at least I wouldn't) to adopt the aliens'
values nor abide by their rules.
So why are we obligated to God? What's the difference?
God created the universe, including humanity and any aliens. Whoever
creates it gets to make the rules.
God is just a label that you put on an idea that you can't wrap your head
around. Inside your brain, there is a box which is trying to figure out
how the universe came into being. You aren't making any progress on it,
so you put the label God on it, and decided that was good enough.
That's not what is happening for me. Maybe for other people that you
know, but not me. Please trust me on this. You don't have to trust me
that God exists; but, please trust me when I say what I am thinking and
why.
If we were made/designed/created by a perfect (I mean, literally
perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent) Being, then the reason
for our existence would be a perfect reason. We might screw up our
lives once born, but we would have started out for a perfect reason.
How could we as imperfect beings screw up perfection?
I'm not saying that our world was perfect.
Why would a perfect being choose to create imperfection?
So that He can watch His human creation make it better over time? So
that we humans will have something to work for and achieve as opposed
to lay around all day with nothing to do? I'll ask Him when I see Him.
Heaven is perfect, not the Earth even before Adam and Eve screwed up.
Our REASON for being here is perfect.
I'm confused now. In what sense is a situation where even a single one
of God's children won't experience his everlasting love labelled as
"perfect"?
I don't know. Some things are beyond our ability to even imagine.
It's like when you and I were children. We didn't understand half of
the things that our parents did. Some things didn't make sense. Now
that we're older, our parents appear to have been doing a better job
than we thought. Same with God, only He's a perfect being with
infinite knowledge and power.
God created Heaven to be perfect, and He keeps out those who disobey
Him and corrupt what He has made perfect.
But why did he create those people?
And then allow them to not accept His plan of salvation and be forever
lost? I don't know. I mean, why would God create people who He
already knew would never accept Him and be condemned? Sorry. I don't
know.
Thus, no human can make it into Heaven without first being made
perfect. Hence, Jesus and the cross were necessary.
Yeah, yeah, blood sacrifices to appease your God for humans being the
imperfect beings that he apparently created them to be. It just gets
crazier and crazier.
Why did your God create us as imperfect?
I don't know.
Well, it does seem significant, doesn't it?
Sure. Perhaps to give us something to strive for in this life?
Should we not take some comfort in that?
We can take comfort in lots of ideas which don't happen to be true.
Should we?
If it makes you feel better, then go ahead. I only want to take
comfort in those things which are real. If I made a mistake about God,
then so what? We all turn into dust when we die anyway. But, if the
Bible is even somewhat accurate...
I've met a number of people (and indeed dated someone) who made the claim
that they would never love their spouse as much as they loved Jesus Christ
(their words, not mine). Let's turn your statement around: what if God
doesn't exist, and you spent your entire life loving someone who doesn't
even exist more than your spouse, who clearly does and who needs your
help and love a lot more than an omnipotent creator?
Then I have screwed up big time and wasted a once-in-a-lifetime
opportunity with my wife. So what? Ultimately, it won't matter
because we'll all be dust again. If we turn into dust when we die and
there is nothing else to existence, then no one will care about
anything beyond the grave because there is NOTHING beyond the grave.
Mark
.
- Follow-Ups:
- Re: funny creationsist
- From: catshark
- Re: funny creationsist
- Prev by Date: Re: Why don't mitochondria have junk DNA?
- Next by Date: Re: "Dinosaur link to birds debated"
- Previous by thread: Re: funny creationsist
- Next by thread: Re: funny creationsist
- Index(es):
Relevant Pages
|
