Re: Atheists are the biggest fools on Earth


Tony Sinclair wrote:
> On 14 Jan 2006 17:33:08 -0800, "Jim Spaza" <spaza9@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> >The Bible does clearly state that anything asked for in prayer will be
> >granted. Now, we must understand that faith and obedience are 100%
> >linked together. Faith, as we learned about in James writings, is
> >linked with works. So it is with faith and obedience. Thus, we MUST
> >pray in God's will. If it is God's will that I move that mountain and
> >I have the faith of a mustard seed, then it WILL happen. But, instead
> >of looking to God as to why it didn't, maybe I need to look in the
> >mirror for the reason. I am sorry; but, I cannot avoid the problem of
> >praying in God's will.
>
> And I am sorry too, that you can't recognize the beam in your own eye.
> You are doing exactly the same thing that you have spent several posts
> disparaging in others. You say to believe the plain meaning Bible,
> you even say that the verses I mentioned are to be taken literally,
> which I didn't think you would admit, but then you put all kinds of
> conditions on them, with no justification I can see, which end up
> making them meaningless. How is that different from John Calvin, or
> Thomas Aquinas for that matter, writing hundreds of closely reasoned
> pages that "prove" that the verses you cite about faith and works
> don't mean what you say they mean?

Because no verse in the Bible can be taken and analyzed in isolation
from the rest of the Bible. Everything that I said has a basis in the
Word of God. It's just that the basis for what I said may not all be
found in the same place in the Bible. In this specific case of Jesus'
teachings about God granting power to humans, you have to look at every
teaching and training that Jesus gave to the disciples, not just one or
two verses in the middle of His ministry. You'll miss out on too much
and come to erroneous conclusions.

Keep in mind that the Bible is not a science manual with step-by-step
instructions on how to know God, do miracles, and interact peacefully
with other humans. It's written in a historical format. And teachings
in history tend to be organized by the date of the teaching, not
subject matter.

If you believe my analysis of the Jesus' teachings to be faulty and my
conclusions inaccurate, then please tell me why specifically.

>
> I realize that saying "it has to be God's will" is the standard
> answer, but it is contradicted by the context, which you say is so
> important. The Gospels contain dozens of tales about Jesus doing good
> works -- healing the sick, and so forth. He could have used all of
> those occasions to tell us that we had the same power, and then the
> context would be as you say, i.e. the power should preferably be used
> to do good works. Instead, he chose the most bizarre miracle of his
> career, namely making a fig tree wither simply because it didn't have
> ripe figs out of season. There is no way to construe that as a good
> work; if a ten-year old child had hacked at the tree with an axe and
> killed it for the same reason, he would be sent to bed without supper
> for his childish spite, after a good spanking.

The question to be asked is why did Jesus curse the fig tree. He did
NOT curse the fig tree simply because it didn't have ripe figs out of
season. He did it to teach His disciples a lesson about God, His
power, and the disciples' responsibilities.

And if Jesus did curse the fig tree and if He was without sin as the
Bible claims, then it was a morally good act. Just because we don't
see the significance or would have done things differently has no
bearing on an actions morality.

>
> And in case there is any remaining doubt about whether it has to be a
> good work, Jesus illustrates his promise by giving an example of the
> miracles you can do. He was in a country full of sick people, full of
> poor people, full of oppressed people. He could have said that if you
> have faith, you can eradicate leprosy, or end world hunger, or even
> throw out the Romans, which after all was the main job of the Messiah.
> Instead, he said you can cast a mountain into the sea. It's as if he
> wracked his brain to come up with the most useless, most ostentatious
> demonstration he could think of, and credit where it's due, he did a
> pretty good job. Oops, I almost forgot, he also said that with enough
> faith you can walk on water. Another useless miracle, and another
> example of nobody in the last 2,000 years ever having enough faith.

You have completely interjected your own moral code into the equation
here. You view these events totally under the auspices of what YOU
would do if you were Jesus. You have declared yourself to be superior
to Jesus in intellect, wisdom, and willpower.

Why do you think that it was Jesus' job to heal ALL sick people in
Israel?

Why do you think that it is any Christian's job to end all world hunger
or eradicate leprosy from the planet? I'm not saying that these things
are not worthy efforts. I'm just wondering when you replaced God's
way, timing, and manner of doing things with your own. Until you
choose to open your mind to God's ways of doing things, your own
desires will forever color your perception of the Bible.

And it was never the Messiah's job to reclaim Israel from the Romans as
the Jewish hierarchy believed. It wasn't just to make sick people
better. It wasn't just to feed hungry people or clothe the naked.

Jesus came to earth to make dead people live forever. His mission was
to pay the price for everyone's sins so that they would be made right
with God and go to Heaven when they die.

>
> Which brings us to the historical record. It's always possible that
> person X had no faith, or person Y was evil, but surely there have
> been enough Christians in the last 2,000 years who were neither evil
> nor faithless that we would see some clear evidence that Christians
> are "special." Yet we have no more "miracles" attributed to
> Christians than any other people, and no less evil attributed to them.
> In fact, there have been zero miracles of the type he mentioned, i.e.
> moving a mountain, or walking on water, things that could only be
> supernatural. Instead, we have a certain percentage of people who
> recover from serious illness, or it eventually rains after a drought,
> and these are the type of "miracles" that Christians cite as proof,
> even though they occur just as frequently for Muslims or Buddhists.

My friend, these types of events do occur, although I personally know
of no mountains being moved or people walking on water. I have
witnessed healings, drug addictions being eradicated, and angelic
appearances. Just because you have never seen such things doesn't mean
that they don't exist.

If you really studied the Bible, then you'd know that God doesn't do
these miracles so that you'll believe that He exists or that the Bible
is accurate.

And if you did witness a miracle, it wouldn't sway you very much or for
very long at all. A few days after witnessing even someone rising from
the dead in the Name of Jesus, the doubts in your mind would increase.
Was that really a dead body? Did I really see it move? How do they
know that it was this mythical Jesus that made it happen?

No. The only real, lasting way to know if there is a God is to seek
Him through studying the Bible, prayer to Him, and obedience to His
commands. Hey! I didn't design things this way. I'm just telling you
what works and what doesn't.

It is quite probable that you will never witness a miracle in your life
until a basic foundation of faith has been established. And it all
starts with a humble, open mind asking does the God of the Bible really
exist.

>
> In particular, during the Middle Ages, almost all of Western Europe
> consisted of simple peasants who truly believed in the Bible and in
> Jesus, regardless of how corrupt their priests or rulers might be.
> When the Black Death struck, they all sincerely prayed that their town
> be spared, yet a third of them died. By an amazing coincidence, that
> was the same percentage of mortality as in Muslim and pagan regions.
> Actually, it was more than in most Muslim countries, since Muslims
> generally kept themselves cleaner than Christians. So for your theory
> to be true, you have to say that nobody in Europe had a speck of
> faith, when the opposite is just about the only thing we can be sure
> of.

I don't pretend to know the level of faith of those in Western Europe
when the Black Death struck. Thus, I cannot say with any accuracy if
God did or did not spare them and then make some extrapolated guess as
to why the mortality rates in Muslim countries was similar.

>
> If a Muslim told you that the Koran was divinely inspired and
> literally true, and you found a surah that said that anyone who held
> the Koran in his hand and said "Allah is great" would immediately find
> a pound of gold in his other hand, and it didn't work for you, what
> would you do? Would you conclude that the fault was your own, and
> immediately decide to devote the rest of your life to the study of
> Islam in a prayerful and reverential manner, or would you conclude
> that the burden of proof was on the Koran, and that it was not
> divinely inspired after all?

I'd dump the Koran unless there was found some other verse which said
one had to say "Allah" with a minimum amount of faith or something like
that.

I'd probably study the Koran just to make sure that I didn't miss
anything but eventually get rid of it as it was a pack of lies.

Are you honestly saying that you have studied the Bible from front to
back and tested all of the promises in it? You know, the promises like
the following:

"But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find
[him], if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul." -
Deuteronomy 4:29

Have you really sought God, or did you just try out of few verses and
nothing happened? I ask this because I have been there and done that
myself, that is, just try out one or two verses with no response.

>
> I'll tell you what --- I am a prophet of God. Send me all your money,
> and I will do God's will with it. I can prove I am of God by this
> promise: whatever you pray for in my name, I will grant you.
> Provided, of course, it is in accord with my will, and provided your
> faith in me is strong enough.
>
> You see? I am more honest than the Gospels. I didn't hide my caveats
> in another post, in another newsgroup, that I made ten years ago.

I am sorry that you seem extremely disappointed and maybe frustrated
with the Gospels. But, now that you know more about God and His
supposed ways, you can try again to seek Him, right?

.

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