Re: The Heresy of Scientists


Ross Langerak wrote:
> <cafeinst@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:1136926596.425557.234790@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > Gene Poole wrote:
> > > On 9 Jan 2006 08:40:46 -0800, cafeinst@xxxxxxx wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > [SNIP]
> > > >Gene Poole wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> [I tried to post this in response to another sub-thread, but it seems
> to
> > > >> have gotten lost. It fits here just as well]
> > > >>
> > > >> I have a couple of questions for you regarding this nebulous
> information
> > > >> thing.
> > > >>
> > > >> First, we now know the genomes of both human and chimp. There is a
> 100%
> > > >> correspondence of genes, meaning that for every protein in the chimp
> > > >> genome, there is a corresponding protein in the human genome. They
> may
> > > >> be slightly different in exact sequence due to mutations, but it
> seems
> > > >> to me that using Spetnar's definition, both genomes would have
> identical
> > > >> information content. Do you agree? Why or why not?
> > > >
> > > >Assuming that
> > > >1) There is a 100% correspondence between the genes of a chimp and
> > > >genes of a human.
> > > >2) All of the genes are used to define the organisms. (There are no
> > > >"junk" genes.)
> > > >3) There is no way to compress the genetic codes of each of the
> > > >respective organisms into a smaller sequence.
> > > >4) There are no other factors which define the organisms.
> > > >
> > > >Then yes, they would have identical information content. However,
> > > >proving something like this would be difficult.
> > >
> > > Then, granted that these assumptions are true, there is no problem for
> > > neodarwinian evolution with respect to Spetner's "information." (I
> > > assume you consider chimp/human decent from a common ancestor as
> > > qualifying.)
> >
> > That is correct.
> >
> > >
> > > May I be so presumptuous, then, as to assume that you disagree with one
> > > (or more) of these assumptions?
> >
> > I really don't know whether any of the assumptions are true. Another
> > poster argued with 3).
> >
> > >
> > > >Assuming that
> > > >1) There is a 100% correspondence between the genes of a chimp and
> > > >genes of a human.
> > >
> > > Since we have both genomes, and I would tend to regard this as a fact.
> > > Do you disagree? Why?
> >
> > See http://www.genome.gov/15515096. It says that there is a 96%
> > correspondence. How do you define correspondence? Also, humans have 23
> > chromosomes. Chimps have 24.
>
> Chimps have 24 chromosomes because one of their original chromosomes split.
> If you put those two chromosomes together, they match up with the
> corresponding human chromosome gene for gene.
>
> Ironically, in order to salvage the global flood/ark story in the Bible,
> many creationists claim that Noah only had to bring "kinds" aboard the ark.
> The various species then evolved through microevolution from these basic
> kinds. Presumably, there was a horse kind, but if we look at the DNA of
> horses, we find that the number of chromosomes varies dramatically from
> species to species. One can't help but wonder why a difference of a single
> chromosome should block evolution in apes, but it is perfectly acceptable
> for the number of chromosomes in horses to nearly double in the course of
> their "microevolution"? One also can't help but wonder what we would find
> if we looked at the chromosomes of other kinds: like the cat kind, and the
> dog kind, and the reptile kind?

There are horses that have more or less than 32 pairs of chromosomes?

>
> > > >2) All of the genes are used to define the organisms. (There are no
> > > >"junk" genes.)
> > >
> > > You'll have to define "junk gene." It is a non-standard term as best I
> > > can tell. There is, of course, "junk" (non-coding) DNA but since it is
> > > non-coding, then by definition it does not contain genes.
> >
> > It's like a hard-working person who happens to have a job in which had
> > that person not come to work one day, nobody would care. The person
> > gets a lot of work done but still the work is meaningless. Sort of like
> > the research of the average university professor.
> >
> > >
> > > >3) There is no way to compress the genetic codes of each of the
> > > >respective organisms into a smaller sequence.
> > >
> > > You'll need to expand on this one a bit too. If I take this at face
> > > value, then indeed, both genomes are very "compressible." Only 1.2 % of
> > > either genome actually codes for proteins. What does this have to do
> > > with the argument? Which genome do you think is more compressible and
> > > why?
> >
> > If I had to guess, I would think the chimp genome is more compressible
> > than the human genome since the human is able to solve more difficult
> > problems than a chimp and therefore would have a more complicated
> > structure which requires more information to specify. But of course,
> > the chimp could have "junk genes" as I defined above. Such a case would
> > be analagous to a human genius and an human idiot. They might have the
> > same genome, but the human idiot has more "junk genes" than the human
> > genius.
>
> Hold on! If we go back and look at Spetner's criteria for an increase in
> information, we find that chimp DNA contains more information than human
> DNA. Remember, information is a function of specificity. Humans live all
> over the world in different types of environments. Chimps live in a
> specific environment in Africa. Chimps have more specificity than humans.
> Therefore, by Spetner's reasoning, chimps require more information than
> humans.

Cute.

>
> > > >4) There are no other factors which define the organisms.
> > >
> > > This is yet another vague concept. What does it mean to define an
> > > organism? Obviously there is much more to it than just the genome.
> > > Nonetheless, it would seem that you are now abandoning Spetnar's line of
> > > reasoning since he is only concerned with information as it applies to
> > > the genome of an organism.
> >
> > Everyone seems to be convinced that DNA contains all of the information
> > which makes us tick. What if there is more information than DNA which
> > causes us to be what we are? How do we know that DNA is everything?
> > What if someone discovers something else which specifies
> > characteristics of life.
> >
> > >
> > > Tangentially to our discussion, could you share your view on the
> > > human/chimp relationship? Do you consider the two related by decent?
> >
> > No, I don't think they are related by descent. And if they are, then
> > the chimps came from humans and not the other way around. This is all
> > somewhat consistent with Spetner's ideas. But this belief is based on
> > my religion though, not Spetner's ideas.
> >
> > As a scientist, I don't think it's possible to know what happened
> > millions of years ago without time travel. Extrapolation is a very weak
> > form of inference, as it's not even testable. Scientists are doing it
> > all the time, yet it is not real science. Science cannot answer
> > questions like this. The only reason scientists are doing it is because
> > they want answers to questions like how did we get here, yet most
> > scientists are atheists and since traditional religions for them cannot
> > answer these questions, they make "science" their religion.
>
> Past events leave evidence. A car accident leave evidence. A civil war
> battle leaves evidence. An animal living a million years ago leaves
> evidence. A volcano erupting 100 million years ago leaves evidence. We can
> investigate past events by looking at the evidence that they left for us to
> find today. The purpose of science is to explain the available evidence.
> The explanation that best fits the evidence is considered the best theory.
> That is the way science works.
>
> You are making the common creationist mistake of ignoring the evidence. You
> are trying to equate evolution with atheism and attack the motives of
> scientists instead of dealing with the evidence. The motives of scientists
> don't matter. The can be hypocrites, they can be jerks, they can be biased,
> and it's all irrelevant. The only thing that matters in science is the
> evidence. Until you learn to deal with the evidence, you won't make any
> headway with scientists.

That's just the official party line. If it truly dealt with evidence,
they would recognize the ridiculousness of the hypothesis that life
developed randomly by accident as a result of some chemical soup which
evolved over time and come to the conclusion that life can only be
possible if it was directly designed by G-d. They would accept Paley's
watchmaker argument.

Craig

>
> > > >The notion of information is very simple. However, quantifying
> > > >information content is very complicated and in many cases impossible.
> > > >Nevertheless, the concept is very relevant for evaluating whether
> > > >neo-Darwinism explains how we got here.
> > >
> > > Please explain how your conclusion follows from those premises.
> >
> > I'd be wasting my time explaining it, as the reasoning all comes from
> > Spetner's book and the trueorigin.org section about Spetner.
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > >
> > > [SNIP]
> >

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The Heresy of Scientists
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    (talk.origins)
  • Re: The Heresy of Scientists
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    (talk.origins)
  • Re: How utterly scientific of you guys! {and Ray is Correct btw}
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  • Re: The Heresy of Scientists
    ... we find that the number of chromosomes varies dramatically from ... > that creationism is true and therefore, that the evidence must fit creation. ... Humans live ... Chimps have more specificity than ...
    (talk.origins)