Re: More on Kitz/Dover


Zoe wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 07:33:14 GMT, "R. Baldwin"
> <res0k7yx@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> snip>
>
> Sir R., I am snipping a lot because I want a direct answer to a direct
> question. Thank you for your detailed explanations, but they do not
> answer my direct question, so I want to try one more time.
>
> Your clearest answer so far that I gleaned from your history of
> divergences, is as follows:
>
> >Since Miller was referring specifically to a carp, a member of
> >Actinopterygii, all extant terrestrial vertebrates should be equidistant
> >from the carp.
>
> all extant terrestrial vertebrates? Does this mean, then, that not
> only do the horse, rabbit, chicken, snapping turtle, and bullfrog have
> the same last common ancestor, but that humans and chimps also have
> that same last common ancestor? I don't mean a generic common ancestor
> now, but the same LAST common ancestor located somewhere in
> Actinopterygii.
>
> >> So tell me again, are you saying that the horse and the fish, or the
> >> rabbit and the fish, or the chicken and the fish all diverged from the
> >> same common ancestor at the same time?
> >
> >Again, there was a divergence event that resulted in the one hand the
> >lineage giving us Actinopterygii (ray-finned fishes), and on the other hand
> >the lineage giving us tetrapods, to which all living terrestrial vertebrates
> >belong.
>
> so now the carp is over on the Actinopterygii line and the chicken,
> horse, bullfrog, etc., are over on the tetrapod line. Let me see if I
> understand now.
>
> A common ancestor diverged into both the Actinopterygii and the
> Tetrapoda lineages, and this contemporaneous divergence is evidenced
> by the carp and the horse (for instance) having the same molecular
> distance from each other. Right so far?
>
> But then, would you agree with this view from the National Academy of
> Sciences?
>
> http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/evidence.html
>
> 490 million years have passed since first known appearance of fish
> 350 million years have passed since first known appearance of
> amphibians
> 310 million years have passed since first known appearance of reptiles
> 200 million years have passed since first known appearance of mammals
> 150,000 years have passed since first known appearance of humans.
>
> from that I would conclude the following:
>
> 140 million years between the fish and the amphibian.
> 180 million years between the fish and the reptile.
> 290 million years between the fish and the mammal.
> nearly 490 million years between the fish and the human.
>
> So if I understand NAS, they are positing different last common
> ancestors for the groups that contain the carp, bullfrog, turtle,
> chicken, horse, etc. Not so?
>
> Please reconcile the two viewpoints -- yours and theirs -- so that
> different last common ancestors emerging millions of years apart still
> have equal molecular distances between them and the extant species
> today.
>
> <snip most other points until I get a clear answer on this>





Zoe

I am sure Mr Baldwin will give a concise answer, but in meantime,
perhaps a diagram will illustrate the concept. Look at the tree below
(I'm hoping this is rendered appropriately in your mailreader). It is
crude and not meant to represent any real relationships.

The "X" axis is (say) molecular distance. Do you see that "A" and "B"
are equally far from "C" along that axis? Now, imagine that "A" and "B"
are any two of the extant tetrapods described above and that "C" is the
carp.

This is what R. Baldwin is trying to get across to you.


______________A
|
___Tetrapods_______|
| |______________B
|
--------------|
|
|__Ray_Finned_ Fishes_____________C

--------------------------------------------------------------------->
X

<snip>

>
> <snip rest until I get some clear answers>

HTH

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: More on Kitz/Dover
    ... >>>from the carp. ... >>the same last common ancestor, but that humans and chimps also have ... >>distance from each other. ... The first known appearance of "fish" would ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: More on Kitz/Dover
    ... >>by 13%, by that of the snapping turtle also by 13%, carp to the chicken ... [snip embarrassing and unnecessary hypotheses] ... >>amphibian, and a fish, actually show that all of these organisms share ... >>a common ancestor at an equal molecular distance." ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: More on Kitz/Dover
    ... >>ancestor with all Actinopterygii. ... resembles the common ancestor more or less closely. ... >>>so now the carp is over on the Actinopterygii line and the chicken, ... since ray-finned fish. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • More on Kitz/Dover
    ... Kenneth Miller said: "... ... exact same difference between cytochrome c in a fish and an amphibian, ... fact that they're all the same distance apart means that the ... ... instance, the frog and its common ancestor, and horse and its common ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: KT boundry event
    ... When is it believed that amphibians arose? ... And this has something to do with saying that humans are fish? ... That's not best usage. ...
    (talk.origins)
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