Re: Book-able view of ID as speculative science

Deadrat wrote:
> "topmind" <topmind@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:1135735517.215338.311970@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > Deadrat wrote:
> > > "topmind" <topmind@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > > news:1135649615.278232.14160@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > > Deadrat wrote:
> > > > > "topmind" <topmind@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > > > > news:1135633423.449045.145440@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Deadrat wrote:
> > > > > > > "topmind" <topmind@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:1135579901.274105.152520@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > > > Deadrat wrote:
> > > > > > > > > "topmind" <topmind@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:1135473070.598884.57870@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <snip>
>
> > > And that's their scientific program. The initial identification. They have
> > > a clear set of criteria for that. You don't.
> >
> > Come on, it cannot be the simple with you. So if one sets up a system
> > to produce "candidates for further inspection" while reading DNA
> > signatures, that would qualify it as "science" in your mind?
> >
>
> Depends on what the criteria for candidates are.
>
> > If that's the case, why didn't you say earlier that a "candidate
> > producer" was sufficient to be classified as "science"? You made it
> > sound like SETI did something "special" to qualify.
>
> Nope. They just have a scientific method to pick candidates.


Please describe what this "scientific method" is for them. Generally
they use human technology as a model. Searching for Pi, Mona Lisa,
Shakespeare, or images in general is the same kind of thing: searching
for things we generally know how to detect.


> > > > > There is absolutely no chance of there being a "Darwin cult" that includes
> > > > > people who understand biology. There will sooner be a "Darwin cult"
> > > > > that worships the city in Australia. But even if such cults existed (and
> > > > > for your example, they would have to set educational policy, not just
> > > > > be running around), it wouldn't matter. Everyone concludes that teaching
> > > > > biology has a secular purpose and effect. Thus no one would look into
> > > > > the policy makers' motivations. Do you not get this?
> > > >
> > > > And if they did try to set educational policy?
> > >
> > > It still wouldn't matter. As long as the policy is entirely secular (and biology
> > > qualifies), the motives for teaching the policy are immaterial.
> >
> >
> > You said, "the motives for teaching the policy are immaterial." If that
> > is the case, then why would one consider my version of ID, along with
> > debunking, "religion"?
>
> Because your friends in the ID movement screwed up. The courts aren't
> about to consider your particular twist on ID, no matter how secular you
> think you've made it. ID is defined by what ID has done.

So they poisened the pot forever? Forever is possibly an exaggeration.


> > > > > > > > > Your version of ID is really not very different from Behe's, and the reason
> > > > > > > > > that Behe's can't be mentioned is well stated in Judge Jones' decision. Why
> > > > > > > > > don't you read it and then tell us what bothers you?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1. I propose criticising ID for being hard to test.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How about astrology? Is that hard to test?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think it has already been tested and failed.
> > > > >
> > > > > So has ID. For hundreds of years.
> > > >
> > > > When did it fail?
> > >
> > > When it failed to produce any evidence for it or any lines of inquiry
> > > that can be pursued from it. Feel free to show I'm wrong.
> >
> > Then SETI will fail too.
>
> Quite possibly. And then it too will be abandoned as a line of inquiry.
>

Failing to detect a signal does not rule out intelligent life. Most
already agree that detection is a long-shot. That is one reason why the
gov won't chip in.

> >
> > > > > > > > 3. I propose DNA pattern analysis as a potential test. Thus, it is
> > > > > > > > testable. (Maybe not a great test, but that is not what is needed to
> > > > > > > > qualify under CQ.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I can't figure out whether ID is testable until I hear specifics about
> > > > > > > "DNA pattern analysis." Maybe you're right. But as far as I can
> > > > > > > tell, you are unconstrained in your encoding and your interpretation.
> > > > > > > That means you don't have a scientific test.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, SETI faces a very similar problem. They have no up-front
> > > > > > sure-shot way to say a signal is "intelligent".
> > > > >
> > > > > But that's not what they're doing. They're not looking for "intelligent"
> > > > > signals. They're looking for signals with a particular electromagnetic
> > > > > signature. Haven't you figured this out yet?
> > > >
> > > > Only to narrow down the candidates. And if there is no way to determine
> > > > "intelligence" once they get a candidate signal, then does that mean
> > > > they are not doing science? You can't have it both ways.
> > >
> > > Well, we won't know until they get a signal. Their search for such a
> > > signal is scientific. What about what they do with a signal once they
> > > get it? We'll have to wait and see.
> >
> > So they get to be "science" even before they have a chance to screw
> > anything up, yet ID must produce clear up-front tests for *final*
> > categorization first? Again, the Double Standard is poking its head up.
>
> Where did "*final*" some in? ID must describe its candidate selection
> process.

That is relatively trivial to do.

-T-

.

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