Re: Intelligent life form


Noone Inparticular wrote:
<snipped>
> Richard Forrest wrote:
> > Noone Inparticular wrote:
> > > Richard Forrest wrote:
> > > > Noone Inparticular wrote:
> > > > > Ex_OWM wrote:
> > > > > <snips>
> > > > >
> > > > > > I struggle to think
> > > > > > of something any other species can do that man hasn't figured out a way of
> > > > > > doing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Living peacefully among ourselves.
> > > >
> > > > Most species do *not* live peacefully amongst themselves!
> > >
> > > Yes, "most".
> > >
> > > Ex_OWM wrote; "I struggle to think of something *any* other species
> > > can..." -emphasis added as an explanation for my comments
> > >
> > > >
> > > > In that respect man is better than most. Non-social species are likely
> > > > to attack and possibly kill other members of their own species who
> > > > stray onto their territory. In social species - lions for example - it
> > > > is common for males who take over ownership of females to kill any
> > > > offspring which may be around to give a better chance for their own
> > > > offspring. Chimps kill each other - one of the more horrifying findings
> > > > of Jane Goodall's research programme.
> > >
> > > Yes, yes. Many animals kill members of their own species. Many do not,
> > > however. We humans, however, seem particularly adept at it. Seem to
> > > like doing it, we do.
> > >
> >
> > Oh?
> > How many people have you killed recently?
> >
> > Jane Goodall studied a small population of chimps, and found that they
> > kill both members of other 'tribes' and on one occasion one of their
> > own. That is, statistically speaking, a very high incidence of murder.
> > In the UK, there are fewer than 1,000 murders each year in a population
> > of about 60 million. Although such crimes are widely and sensationally
> > reported, their incidence is very, very low. As a human, I'm much safer
> > walking through the streets of a town I have never visited, even one on
> > the other side of the world, that a chimp would be straying into the
> > territory of a neighbouring chimp tribe, let alone a lion straying into
> > the territory of another male. In most animals there are strong
> > behavioural systems to prevent them comming into contact with other
> > members of their own species except for reproduction, and in social
> > species it is very risky to stray into rival territory. Those cute
> > meerkats which everyone loves so much will kill members of their own
> > group if they have been separated for more than a few hours.
> >
> > And yes, I know that humans also wage wars and commmit acts of
> > genocide.
>
> Yes. So why equivocate? Some animals kills there own kind out of
> biological (instinctual) imperative or necessity.

Who says humans don't kill their own kind for those reasons?

> Maybe some higher
> apes actually think about it before they do it. But name a species who
> routinely, over and over again, commits wholesale slaughter of members
> of their own species based on skin color, or respective sky pixies they
> worship, or righting imagined (or real) historical wrongs, or whatever
> the flavor of the era is.

Name me another ape which lives in such huge populations, so closely
crowded, and has such a complex social and cultural structure. You are
not comparing like with like. However, as I have pointed out, it's a
lot safer to be a human in strange territory inhabited by other humans
than a chimp in strange territory inhabited by other chimps.

>
> You can't be serious in thinking we are not different in this respect
> to other animals. It is who we are. We are intelligent, communicative,
> apes. Who take great pleasure in killing our own for profit and
> pleasure.

I don't take pleasure in killing. Neither does anyone else I know. We
call people who take pleasure from killing psychopaths, and either
recruit them into the military or put them in secure prisons. Moreover,
where humans indulge in mass killing, they very, very commonly label
the people they are killing as not human. The Nazis called the people
they killed 'Untermenschen' - suv-humans. When the colonists of
Australia killed aboriginal tribes they claimed that they were just
animals. It seems that to kill other humans you need to be either a
psychopath, or to find a way to deny their humanity. It is not part of
normal behaviour for most people.

>
> > However, it's worth studying the ways in which normal human
> > behaviour needs to be manipulated and distorted for such acts to occur.
> > Military training is harsh and disciplined because it is only by
> > supressing the normal human reluctance to take life that soldiers can
> > be trained to kill. Even then, it is only a small minority of soldiers
> > who actually kill people in opposing armies; one of the characteristics
> > of modern military forces is that their soldiers are much younger than
> > they used to be, and are trained at an age at which their social
> > conscience is less well developed and therefore the normal constraints
> > on not killing not so strong. One of the more horrifying aspects of
> > some genocides is that many of the perpertrators were children.
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > Bearing in mind that we are very numerous and very crowded, humanity
> > > > doesn't do to badly.
> > >
> > > When we weren't so crowded, how'd we do?
> > >
> >
> > It's because we are so social that we can get so crowded at all!
> > One of the most extraordinary aspects of human behaviour is the
> > practice of offering hospitality to strangers, which is particularly
> > strong in societies living in areas with a very low population density.
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > RF

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Intelligent life form
    ... >>> to attack and possibly kill other members of their own species who ... Many animals kill members of their own species. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Intelligent life form
    ... Non-social species are likely ... >> to attack and possibly kill other members of their own species who ... Many animals kill members of their own species. ... Jane Goodall studied a small population of chimps, ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: thoughts on Jesus
    ... Man and other species are caused entirely by your propensity to see ... between humans and other animals, ... You seem to think that animals think differently from us simply ... I *do* know that dolphins show altruistic behavior even to members ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Mens Hour Books
    ... to humans or which prey on humans, ... I guess we'll have to do a survey among farm animals and compare it to ... of what "better off" means applied to a species. ... members are no actual benefit beyond some point - they can even become ...
    (rec.arts.sf.composition)
  • Re: The downsides of pseudo-historical fiction
    ... and some aliens are more compatible with each other ... than with other members of their own species. ... Cats usually get along better with humans than with ...
    (rec.arts.sf.composition)