Re: breaking the bond


John Harshman wrote:
> wade.hines@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > John Harshman wrote:
> >>Rick Merrill wrote:


> >>>"Atheism is not the only conceivable worldview for a thinking person.
> >>>Belief in God gives us reason to examine the universe more closely,
> >>
> >>Two questions:
> >>
> >>Who are "us"? and More closely than what?
> >
> > The "us" refers to that subset of believers who he asserts to be
> > speaking for. The "more closely" works in figure of speech sense
> > as part of the quest to learn more (than we currently know but
> > likewise more than the individual knows). There's quite a history
> > of believers using science in their investigations to better
> > understand their gods creation. More power to 'em.

> That might be true, but how do you know it? Are you working with much
> more than is available at the cited URL?

I think it follows from the opening line provided in the first post.
"Atheism is not the only conceivable worldview for a thinking person"

This sets the stage of defense against the proposition that
atheism is the only conceivable worldview for a thinking person.
The "us" are those non atheists who are never-the-less, thinking
persons.

And this is all I have to go on.

> >>>and
> >>>generates a matrix that both encourages and facilitates an engagement
> >>>with the world.


> >>Surely this depends on the exact nature of your belief. If you believe,
> >>as a Hindu, in Maya the world-illusion, or, as a Manichaean, that the
> >>world is a snare created by the Demiurge, there's not much reason to
> >>engage; quite the opposite.
> >
> > Indeed but such belief structures are atypical.

> Atypical for what group? Religion as a whole? Christianity? I'm not so sure.

I speak only from my limited and probably biased sample of the world.

> > Again, there's quite
> > a long role of scientists who are believers who have noted that their
> > own quest for knowledge is rooted in their belief systems.

> Well, of course. If their belief systems discouraged investigation, they
> wouldn't have become scientists. From this we can draw the conclusion
> that the religious beliefs of scientists who are believers do encourage
> investigation. And not much more.

Yet apparently the author finds a need to defend that believers can
be rational thinking people. Again refer to the opening quote I
repeat above.

> > There are
> > also those who lack such belief systems who seem equally passionate.
> > And then there are those who seem to share similar beliefs but whose
> > belief systems seems to forestall the requisite curiosity about how
> > the world works. So what's the problem?

> If that's all he's saying, there's no problem. It's just that one
> interpretation of his statement, which is all I have to go on, is that
> believers make better scientists than non-believers. You may have
> reasons for knowing that this is a misinterpretation, though at present
> I don't know what they are.

I read a concession that atheism represents the dominant archtype
for "thinking persons". I don't read that as a concession to the
correctness of atheism.

This does seem to be a common perception about thinking people and
atheism and/or thinking persons, particularly amongst many atheists.
I'll note that among agnostics, that seems to be more of the
thinking persons default and I presume that many theists probably
think that's the thinking persons choice. While we are at it, most
of the people I know who claim to be liberal/conservative/other
seem to think that being liberal/conservative/other is the only
viable choice for a thinking person. I'm far more flexible and
tolerant, which is the only viable choice for a thinking person.

> > When did the reason to do science need to be monolithic?

> Never. There's a problem only if he's claiming some special status for
> his particular position.

I think I've answered this above.

> >>>Of course, I know this conclusion will be contested. The
> >>>arguments remain open, despite rather crude attempts to close them down.
> >>>I remain respectful of atheism, believing that I have much to learn from
> >>>it and the concerns that it expresses. But I no longer share its faith.
> >>>Or lack thereof."
> >>>
> >>>- http://www.beliefnet.com/story/172/story_17216_1.html
> >>>
> >>>Alister McGrath on Atheism, Religion and Science -- Beliefnet.com
> >>>
> >>>This is story of one man's intellectual journey into biology and
> >>>understanding.
> >
> >>It's a real pity that he doesn't in any way explain his reasoning, at
> >>least not that I can find.
>
> Since you apparently have access to information I don't, could you shed
> any light on this bit too?

I only have an interpretation that you seem to have overlooked or
dismissed.

.

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