Re: talk.origins faq Hitler claim part 3

http://www.philosophy.ubc.ca/faculty/matthen/Two%20Ways%20of%20Thinking%20About%20Natural%20Selection%20.htm

"The idea is that if natural selection were to act on its own, it would
achieve optima. Evolution does not always produce optima, however,
because natural selection is opposed by constraints.

But this is an illegitimately teleological way of conceptualizing the
action of natural selection, that is, by specifying a result, and a
value-laden one at that."
---

Reproduction is the force in natural selection, which pushes the
populationsize towards carryingcapacity, pushes the less fit variants
into extinction, makes variants spread into environments where their
variation contributes to reproduction. But mostly what reproduction
does, is to have the same thing all over again.

You speak of many losses, but then at the end you have some
"succesfull" organisms that reproduce. How dramatic. But they all die,
all the organisms die, and the fact that they do, reveals the meaning
of reproduction in the context of natural selection. Through
reproduction the forms of organisms are preserved, over certain death.
So we can say that natural selection shapes the population by the event
of reproduction, resulting, in stable environments over time, in
adapted organisms which each part contributes to reproduction in some
way. But to argue as basic to natural selection that the shape of
organisms is determined by reproducing more then another type of
organism, obliterates the meaning of natural selection. Because then
you have as basic meaning a relativistic valueladen concept to describe
the traits.

Black wingcolor is a trait that reproduces more then white wingcolor,
becomes the explanation for black wingcolor of moths, with of course
spurious notions commonly expressed, of being better and superior to
white.

Such explanations for traits become all the more ridiculous when the
variant compared to is actually extinct already. See this black
wingcolor, oh how superior it is to invisible pink, orange, and white
ones, which might have existed, but would theoretically have reproduced
much less. The blackwingcolor facillitated reproduction, the form is
preserved through reproduction over certain death, that is the
explanation for blackwingcolor of moths.

And wait there are some white still left in the population. Now the
explanation for these white traits requires an extra explanatory
mechanism called stabilizing selection. Such is required because we all
know that the basic operation of an organism is to make other organisms
go extinct by reproducing more then the other, so says natural
selection. Or was the basic operation simple reproduction?

Gee if it wasn't for diverging of organisms into separate environments,
we would have according to natural selection, malthusian competitive
encroachment, one singe form of organism. So I grant you may rightly
attribute one single species of your choice to natural selection. The
theory of divergence may explain all the rest. Let's see what this
theory says: the variation contributed to it's reproduction in the
environment. The fact that there are millions upon millions of species
seems to imply that simple reproduction determines the shape of
organisms, and not reproducing more then another driving another
variant to extinction.

Or let's have some species-level natural selection. As you probably
also have seen the nature documentary, the crocodiles tended to
monopolize the waterresource, over all the other species that gathered
at the last pond of water. The environmental factor of water favouring
crocodiles over other species in competition for this resource. Well
just like the lack of white wingcolor explains black moths, the lack of
being an ape or zebra sure explains a lot about crocodiles, not.

Obviously your referring to lossrate is nonsense. Obviously you want to
make natural selection sensible, by having both injurous and beneficial
doing the same thing, losing in this case. You should not define
natural selection as differential reproductive success, when you don't
want to have injurous variants being preserved as part of natural
selection. You should just differentiate the number of beneficial
variants that reproduced, with the number of less fit that didn't
reproduce. Then you have natural selection which solely consists of
observations of beneficial being preserved, and injurous being
eliminated, which is what you, and Darwin, want apparently. And then
you have to clean up these numbers a little further so that they only
refer to observations where the "selective" environmental factor
actually matters.

Please calculate the *actual* natural selection for me in your example,
that is the number of beneficial that reproduced divided by the number
of injurous that did not reproduce, and further cleaned up...

regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

.

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