Re: Biblical Ages


Chris Devol wrote:
> "Richard Forrest" <richard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:1124871588.738922.321810@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > Chris Devol wrote:
> >> "Richard Forrest" <richard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> >> news:1124798343.277365.98290@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >
> >> > Chris Devol wrote:
> >> >> "Richard Forrest" <richard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> >> >> news:1124783186.630786.272090@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Chris Devol wrote:
> >> >> > <snipped>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Perhaps so.
> >> >> >> > So perhaps you can tell me how Noah, who is recorded as living to
> >> >> >> > a
> >> >> >> > vast age yet spent a lot of his time closely closeted with
> >> >> >> > domesticated
> >> >> >> > animals managed it? The source cited at the beginning of this
> >> >> >> > thread
> >> >> >> > for stories of immense longevity contradicts the reason you give
> >> >> >> > for
> >> >> >> > such longevity. Personally, I think that the stories of people
> >> >> >> > living
> >> >> >> > for centuries are distortionsm fabrications or fables, and your
> >> >> >> > 'flesh-eating zombies' explanation a hoot. But do try for *some*
> >> >> >> > semblance of internal consistency.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> According to the Vedas, approximately 120 million years ago, the
> >> >> >> earth
> >> >> >> planet was covered with water during the partial devastation that
> >> >> >> occurs
> >> >> >> with a change of "Manu" (this was at the the end of a
> >> >> >> "Manvantara" -
> >> >> >> one
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> the sub-cycles of history). During this devastation, the Manu of
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> new
> >> >> >> age, Vaivasvata was kept alive on a large boat which was towed by
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> Lord
> >> >> >> in the form of a giant fish. This Manu, who is a human being, is
> >> >> >> alive
> >> >> >> for
> >> >> >> the entire duration of the Manvantara, about 300 million years.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The "Noah" story may have its roots in this Vedic account. In any
> >> >> >> case,
> >> >> >> whether you accept the Biblical account or the older Vedic account,
> >> >> >> there
> >> >> >> was a supernatural intervention by God which enabled the
> >> >> >> extraordinary
> >> >> >> events to occur.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So which do you think is the true account, and how do you determine
> >> >> > which one?
> >> >>
> >> >> I follow the Vedic version, because the Vedic conception of God is far
> >> >> and
> >> >> away the most comprehensive and detailed of all scriptures. It
> >> >> predates
> >> >> the
> >> >> advent of kali-yuga (3102 BC), whereas the Abrahamic traditions came
> >> >> into
> >> >> existence within the last 5000 years.
> >> >
> >> > You haven't answered my question:
> >> > How do you determine which is the true account?
> >>
> >> Here's a hint, which shouldn't really be necessary. The key word is
> >> "because"
> >>
> >
> > Emm...generally, in science, older accounts tend to be *less* acurate.
> > It isn't a very good reason, is it? The age of an account is not in
> > itself an indicator of accuracy, but as knowledge accumulates over time
> > newer accounts tend to accomodate more of the data and are therefore
> > more acurate.
>
> I did not say that the mere age of the Vedas makes them more accurate. I
> said that the quality of the ideas, the quality of the conception of God,
> contained in the Vedas makes them more reliable. I then pointed out that
> they predate the advent of the present age of Kali, in which human thought
> is becoming regressively more and more muddled, and those religious
> traditions which came into existence within the last 5000 years display
> varying degrees of such confusion.
>
Well, bearing in mind that no religious traditions did *not* come into
existence within the last 5000 years, that rejects all religious
traditions are confused!

> This is not a difficult concept. The problem is that despite your earlier
> statement that "evolution has no direction", you have a progressive, linear
> view of history, in which things go from simple to complex, from
> unintelligent to intelligent, from dim to bright, so to speak. That is why
> you equate extreme age with extreme unreliability.
>

No, the reason why older research is less reliable is because it has
less data on which to base its conclusions. I explained this.

And as for my views on history: how on earth did you work them out when
I have never mentioned anything about history? I'm not an historian.
I'm a vertebrate palaeontologist.

> One thing that Biblical fundamentalists and evolutionists have in common is
> the linear progressive view of history.

They do? It seems to me that the Biblical fundamentalists, in their
insistence on the historical reality of the 'Fall' have precisely the
opposite view to a "linear progressive view of history". As for
'evolutionists' - they don't have views on history. It's not the field
of study of evolutionary science.

>
> But the actual fact is that history is cyclic, is far longer than either
> "science" or "Biblical fundamentalism" have ever imagined, and is regressive
> within any particular cycle.

And this 'Fact' is uncontaminated by any shred of evidence, of course.

> Things generally go from good to bad,

And this is 'progressive'?

> from
> complex to simple, from intelligent to unintelligent.

Ah, I see. So this is the 'we are less intelligent than our ancestors'
argument, which as so many of your arguments is unsupported by anything
remotely resembling any evidence.

>
> > So your answer begs the question. The age of the account is at best
> > irrelevant, at worst an indicator of *inaccuracy*.
> >
> >> >> >> But you obviously don't accept any account of anything which
> >> >> >> involves
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> intervention of God. So as a devotee of the "scientific" method, I
> >> >> >> suppose
> >> >> >> you will have to settle for simple mockery of anything which
> >> >> >> doesn't
> >> >> >> fit
> >> >> >> into the wonderful "scientific" paradigm which has given us so many
> >> >> >> new
> >> >> >> ways
> >> >> >> to commit violence against others, eat their dead bodies, and rape
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> planet, in our quest to be known as "developed nations".
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Actually, I was mocking the internal contradictions in your posting.
> >> >> > Or
> >> >> > is logic just another one of the things I need to abandon?
> >> >>
> >> >> Actually, I see in your post no cogent analysis whatsoever of my
> >> >> statements.
> >> >
> >> > So an analysis which points out that your statement contains internal
> >> > contradictions is not cogent?
> >> > What a curious idea.
> >>
> >> So point out one of the "internal contradictions" where in one place I
> >> made
> >> the statement "X is true" and in another place "X is false" where X
> >> refers
> >> to exactly the same thing in both cases.
> >>
> >> I think it's more likely that you are obtaining the "contradictions" by
> >> equivocation, like where you take a phrase I used, such as "hanging out
> >> with
> >> sheep, pigs and chickens" to mean "agricultural community", as if there
> >> is
> >> only one kind of agriculture consisting solely of "sheep, pigs and
> >> chickens".
> >>
> >
> > The contradiction goes like this:
> > You ascribe the fact that modern man does not live to the great ages
> > reported in the Bible (which was the reference at the time) to his
> > proximity to animals and habits of "hanging out with sheep, pigs and
> > chickens'.
>
> I never made any such statement. What I said was "don't hang out with sheep,
> pigs, and chickens and you won't get their diseases". I never said that
> animal diseases are the sole cause of the decrease in lifespan.
>

In the context it seemed a very reasonable assumption!

To quote from one of your previous postings:
"Extremely long-lived humans (1000+ years) are never going to show up
in
actuarial or medical studies. For obvious reasons, they have no need
for
health insurance, doctors, pharmaceuticals, corporate or government
"help"
to extend their lifespans. They are not living ordinary mundane lives,
do
not die ordinary mundane deaths, and are not accessible to census
takers.

The current idea of "longevity" presents us with a domesticated and
hideous
113-year-old walking skeleton and calls it a "gerantological miracle".

But such zombie freaks are only the extreme products of a devolved and
decrepit race of flesh-eating, world-raping savages who proudly
identify
themselves as citizens of "developed nations". "

So I guess that the rant about 'flesh-eating zombies' was irrelevant to
the argument. Something your just put in because you felt like a good
rant?

> So your "contradiction" is the result of equivocating my narrow statement
> with a general principle which I did not state nor imply.

The implication was pretty clear.
Now you are backpedaling like mad.

RF

>
> <snip>

.

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