Re: Ludwig Boltzmann, entropy

Tim Tyler wrote:
>Paul J Gans <gans@xxxxxxxxx> wrote or quoted:
>> Tim Tyler <tim@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> >We don't know how many particles there are in any region
>> >of space either. How many neutrinos are there in the
>> >diamond you mentioned. How many gravitons? Each particle
>> >contributes to the entropy of the system and the number of
>> >possible states it can take up - yet nobody has a clear
>> >idea of how many particles there are in any region of
>> >spacetime.
>>
>> This is wrong. We don't know about them because they
>> *don't* contribute to the thermodynamics of the system
>> at all.
>
>We were talking about the number of microstates in a
>system. Each neutrino has a position and momentum -
>like any other particle - and consequently adds to
>the microstates avaible to any system that includes
>them.
>
>> You have got to come to grips with this.
>
>Please stop telling me what to do.
>
>> Things like energy and entropy depends on the ability of
>> a system to move from one energy state to another.
>> Neutrinos, for example, are so weakly coupled to other
>> forms of matter that we can't do *anything* to them short
>> of using a mountain-sized neutrino detector.
>>
>> In other words, they just don't count.
>
>It's not clear to me what you think this has to to
>with the number of microstates in the system.
>

If neutrinos were a player in thermo at the microscopic
level, then you would no longer be able to describe
the macroscopic in terms of the microscopic seems
to me. The neutrino's existance was first postulated because
less energy than expected was detected by a calorimeter
during beta decays. Pauli hypothesized the neutrino
in order to conserve momentum, that a particle not
contributing to the detectable energy output was taking
some energy away. Neutrinos are certainly a non-player
at the macroscopic level, thats why detecting them is so
difficult. If they affected the microscopic level you could
no longer unify microscopic with macroscopic with efforts
pioneered by Boltzmann et. al., and it seems harmonizing
the two scales was the point of their work. I just
don't see the netrino as being significant in thermo.

>
>Presumably you're still sticking to the classical
>notion that thermodynamics allows you to derive the
>entropy of a system from its pressure and temperature -
>and therefore caluclate its microstates.
>
>As you may have gathered, I do not think that's a
>realistic way to calculate the entropy or number
>of states actually present in any real physical system.
>
>



.

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