Re: The logic of atheism

jwarrend@xxxxxxx wrote:

> Ben Goren wrote:
>> prabbit1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>>> Ben Goren wrote:
>>>
>>>> The first is that all gods have as an essential property some
>>>> sort of supernatural characteristic. The second is that
>>>> ``supernatural'' is merely a synonym for ``really, truly,
>>>> honestly, I really really mean it, no exceptions at all,
>>>> perfectly, absolutely, impossible.''
>>>
>>> No, it's not. It's a synonym for "violates the laws of
>>> nature." I.e. it does something that natural law says can't
>>> happen.
>>
>> Exactly. And for ``natural law'' to have any meaning, it has to
>> be unbreakable, even by Superman. If Superman can break it,
>> it's not a natural law, though it may well be a rather emphatic
>> ``natural suggestion.''
>
> This presupposes a certain understanding of natural laws that
> theists (of which I am one) wouldn't subscribe to. Let's look
> at Newton's Law of Gravitation as an example (and let's pretend
> that this law wasn't modified by later work by Einstein...).

*sigh*

There's a reason that I picked math and logic as my example
natural laws instead of physics (or chemistry or...). And the
reason is that, as you accurately describe, it's entirely possible
to posit that it's possible to violate the law of gravity
(etc.). I'll make your argument even easier--let's suppose that
we're in a Matrix-style simulation, and that the programmers
could, at their whim, do whatever they like with the law of
gravity (or any other law that's derived from observation.)

But those programmers /couldn't/ change 1 + 1 to be anything other
than two (and, as I said, do please spare me the bad binary or
Boolean puns). They could certainly play tricks on us to make it
seem like it doesn't, if nothing else then by playing directly
with our perceptions and our brains. But nothing in any universe
could possibly change the natural laws of math and logic.

Another example: it's trivial to envision a universe with
non-Euclidean geometry in which the ratio of the circumference to
the diameter of a circle /isn't/ pi--a universe, even, in which
said circumference is constantly varying, or perhaps even one in
which it's impossible to draw a circle in the first place. But, in
that universe, e^(i * pi) + 1 still equals 0. Geometers may be
astounded to learn that, in our universe, things that we call
circles are so closely related to pi...but their mathematicians,
assuming they're clever enough, know about the relationship
between zero, one, the square root of negative one, the base of
natural logarithms, and this funky irrational number that we
happen to call, ``pi.''

And there's nothing any hypothesized god could ever possibly do
about it. Thus, it's a natural law, inviolate. . .and, therefore,
something that forever banishes the supernatural. Sure, you could
(maybe) play around with gravity. But you ain't gonna do *** with
math and logic, no matter how powerful you are.

And, if you /could/ play around with gravity (etc.), so
could we--assuming we had enough knowledge and access to
resources. Hardly seems fair to call something ``supernatural'' if
it's open to mere morals like us, no? And, as I've said many
times, all it does is reduce any god that makes use of such tricks
to no superior morally than somebody like David Copperfield
setting himself up as a tin god to some back-bush tribe.

Cheers,

b&

--
EAC Memographer
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
``All but God can prove this sentence true.''

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