Re: atheism and astrology?


<cantueso@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1137398544.247110.114660@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Milan wrote:
> > <cantueso@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > news:1137255200.738419.201470@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> >
> > If I understand you correctly what you are saying is essentially that
"He
> > who does not believe in God will believe in anything."
>
> no. I hate to summarize such a delicate thing, and maybe it simply
> cannot be done.
>
> let's say the problem is not one of belief, but of resources.
>
> > (a quotation wrongly
> > attributed to Chesterton most of the time).
>
>
> I hav not read any Chesterton and cannot remember what he stands for.
>
> > And, secondly, you add that
> > there is a tendency in Europe, as opposed to the US, for example, for
> > atheists to believe in new age rubbish, such as chakras, reiki,
astrology,
> > etc etc.
>
> (I read your message yesterday evening and saw that I am wrong on that,
> as I should have known, stupid me, since the very names of those things
> are American)
> >
> > In my experience, I have found that the quotation attributed to
Chesterton
> > tends to be untrue. What we observe is that gullible people believe
> > anything. This may seem a tautology, but what it means is that when you
find
> > somebody who believes in astrology, for example, they believe also in
other
> > irrational things as well, such as reiki, the power of pyramids,
> > channelization, power of crystals, etc etc.
>
> yes, it goes together. it is sold in the same places, by the same
> people, and thus draws the same lonely crowds.
>
> to call those crowds "gullible" is probably a mistake. most people do
> not want to be bothered and cannot handle long abstractions. they will
> take what is being given. and while buying it and paying for it, they
> will also giggle and say: I know it is just trash, but so what.
>

Well, I wish they did have such attitude. However, that is not my experience
at all. The people I know who have bought into this new age stuff take it
very seriously indeed and get very defensive when you try to argue that it
is crap. They are strong believers. Some of them actually make a living out
of it.

>
> > And if they dont do now, they
> > will do in the near future. Gullible people dont discriminate: they will
> > swallow any rubbish thrown at them. And I've found that most of the time
the
> > believers in such rubbish are also believers in gods.
>
> no. it is a different set.

It may be partially a different set, but there is a lot of overlap.

> people who accept and maintain what they were told by their parents and
> teachers are probably more reliable than those who think that nothing
> is true, all is trash.

This is a false opposition. There are people who accept blindly the cultural
package handed down by their parents, teachers and the cultural milieu in
which they grew up. They dont examine their beliefs or their values and go
on happily by sheer inertia without indulging in any form of critical
thinking -this is a form of arrested development.

There are people who examine critically the cultural package they inherited
and construct their own cultural package using reason and experience. In my
view the majority in this group are atheists and rather immune to most forms
of superstition.

I havent met anybody who thinks that nothing is true, all is trash. This
looks a bit like a strawman to me.

>
>
> > They may be more or
> > less traditional christians, or they may believe in Isis or whatever.
> > Gullibility is a package and doesnt discriminate. Gods and new age
> > disciplines all fall within the realm of the irrational and therefore
are
> > things that the gullible will tend to buy.
>
> you blur, flatten or destroy the meaning of a word by using it in such
> a broad sense.

You may be right. The belief in gods tends to be inculcated at a very early
age, so it would be unfair to accuse the victim of such process of
indoctrination of being gullible. They are easy targets. On the other hand,
irrational beliefs acquired during adulthood are more likely to be the
consequence of gullibility. In that sense, the belief in gods and the belief
in new age stuff could be said to be acquired by different mechanisms.

> > Secondly, I dont think that the new age rubbish is hitting Europe more
than
> > the US. The US is full of new age crap as much as Europe. I have friends
in
> > South America who have bought into new age crap as well. It is a
worldwide
> > phenomenon.
>
> yes. I realize I was wrong. the new age thing is American in its
> origin. awful. and it seems that those centrifugal, frivolous
> pseudo-religious fads are now getting focused on The Flag.
>
> >
> > And finally, I think that a bona fide atheist would tend to be rather
immune
> > to such new age crap. Much more so than a believer in gods.
>
> your concepts of "belief" and "gullibility" are taking you in the wrong
> direction.

Could you expand on this point?

> I read recently that in the US the State had to be protected from the
> churches, whereas in Europe it was the opposite, and the churches had
> to be protected from the State. do you think that is so? (I have never
> been to the US)

I have heard the argument that in the US religious freedom was established
to protect the citizen from the state, rather than the opposite. I'm not
sure how the process was in Europe.

regards
Milan


.

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