Re: California Court says English-only tests OK in schools

Lawrence Akutagawa wrote:

"Alan Lichtenstein" <arl@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:4a76dc7f$0$22549$607ed4bc@xxxxxxxxx

Lawrence Akutagawa wrote:


"Alan Lichtenstein" <arl@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:4a75c064$0$10279$607ed4bc@xxxxxxxxx


Lawrence Akutagawa wrote:



"Josh Rosenbluth" <jrosenbluth@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:h53l8v$8k1$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx



Lawrence Akutagawa wrote:



"Did it cross your mind that those who support bilingual education honestly believe such programs are more succcessful in producing English fluency?"

wups...you definitely lost me on this one. As I understand those words, such a supporter believes that a student who goes through K-12 speaking/reading/writing only in - say - Spanish in such a bilingual education program is upon graduation from high school fluent in English? Do I have that right? It is my understanding in such bilingual programs that the non-English speaking students pursue a course in their own language equivalent to and separate from the English one. It is not the case that such students take the same courses both in their own language and in English. Do I have the right understanding?

No. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilingual_education#United_States


hmmm...I see. My misunderstanding. So of the four kinds of bilingual programs defined, I presume that you refer to transitional bilingual education. Should this be the case, where is the established track record that such programs are indeed successful so that graduating high school seniors in fact are English literate? Where is the data that supports the belief that such programs in fact "...are more succcessful in producing English fluency"? Allow me to make clear that I am not saying that such programs are successful or unsuccessful. I - not being an educator - do not know. But I sure would like to know what the facts are as opposed to what the beliefs are.

Larry, I can only speak from my limited experience. We had bilingual classes in biology in Korean, Chinese and Spanish. Each class followed the same curriculum mainly because it was state mandated and because there was s standard state examination at the end of each year, called the Regents Examination that students needed to pass in order to receive credit towards meeting those graduation requirements. Tests were given in English, Korean and Chinese. In all the years I was an assistant principal, the Chinese and Korean students, taking their examination in those languages consistently scored well ABOVE the averages for the English language examination, and those taking the examination in Spanish consistently scored BELOW those averages.

So what's the conclusion? The language is really irrelevant; the real determinator is group values and culture. I found no particular evidence that bilingual education either hastened or retarded the learning of English, nor did it have any real effect on subject matter achievement. Given that, the cost of bilingual education could be greatly reduced by using a rapid immersion similar to what Israel offers to new immigrants, not conversant in Hebrew. then these students would go into regular classes, taught in English. Bilingual education is a sham to pander to certain cultural groups; nothing more.

.
Thanks, Alan. Interesting observations.

For my part, I can contribute that our eight year old grandson attends a Japanese immersion school in the Los Angeles area - the only one, I think, in California at the K-5 grade level. There has been a scattering of Caucasians, a number of native born Japanese, and some African Americans in his classes from K-2. One of the more interesting classmates is a girl born in China adopted by Caucasian parents. I can't speak for his classmates, but my born/raised-in-Japan wife finds his Japanese - even his accent - to be excellent, both written and spoken. He can write/read in hiragana (one of the two phonetic written forms of Japanese) and even in the more simple kanji - the Japanese pictographs. And having received some handwritten letters as well as one email (he recently was given a second hand computer) from him, I find his English to be more than adequate and have commended him on his writing. Our son - his father - knows a bit of Japanese, but cannot conduct any kind of conversation in that language. Our daughter-in-law - his mother - was born and raised until she was five or so in Korea and understands no Japanese except for some phrases she's picked up here and there. Both, of course, are illiterate in Japanese.

I recall what our daughter-in-law shared with us after his first day in kindergarden - the teacher spoke entirely in Japanese that day and the grandson came home with the observation that he understood not a word of what the teacher said.

The game plan the school district has is to continue the immersion route through grade 8, at the end of which the students embark on all English classes at the high school level. All indications are, according to our son and his wife, that these students tend to be very successful at the high school level. They are both very pleased with the achievements of their son not only in the Japanese facet also in the traditional academic ones, including English. The daughter-in-law...a former grammar school teacher herself...is amazed at the parental support/involvement at the school. I have the impression that entry to this particular school is highly prized, with families outside the school district wanting their kids enrolled. The school is a public one and I don't quite understand how the school can admit out of district students. Demand is so great that a lottery system with a waiting list has been established at the kindergarden level.

Just one anecdotal data point, of course....but observing our grandson wield his way through this school leads me to think that the immersion route is/can be very successful. I need to ask his parents how the born-in-Japan kids are doing relative to English. In two years we'll see the granddaughter embark down the same road. The anticipation a number of years from now is having the grandson and granddaughter conversing in Japanese with each other with neither of their parents understanding what is being said. :-)


Interesting anecdotal description. I for one am in favor of the Israeli plan, which focuses solely on language skills with the goal of making enrollees literate in the shortest possible time, generally six months to a year, as far as I know. Then, being literate, regular schooling can take place with no additional support needed. It is this kind of support I am in favor of for students needing to become literate in English rapidly, as the cost is minimal and the effects achieved in the shortest possible time.

One problem with America is that we don't make our students conversant in any other language, other than English. Second language instruction in America is al but a farce, despite the fact that educators in those disciplines continue to push for more. Second language educators have, several years ago, adopted a conversation approach to teaching language, which IMHO, is far superior to the way I learned a second language when I studied it in school. Although I am fairly comfortable reading and writing French, as I do recall much of my vocabulary and grammar, I have difficulty conversing in it, simply because my ear is attuned to American pronunciations rather than French. I can speak the language fairly decently, but when someone speaks to me, I have to both translate the vocabulary and the pronunciation into English, slowing my ability. That older learning methodology has now been replaced by one that relies more on thinking in the second language rather than on vocabulary and grammar. I think the current approach is far superior.

What leads me to support this belief is my own personal experience. My grandparents spoke Yiddish, and while I never spoke it, I can relatively easily understand a good deal of it when someone speaks it. Mainly because I heard it regularly and became attuned to the particular pronunciations. Even though I never had formal instruction in it.


hmmm...your comments bring to mind the Army Language School located in Monterey, California, now known as the Defense Language Institute Foreign Language Center. It has a very good record of turning out students proficient in a number of different languages in a rather short period of time. As I understand, the basic approach is one of immersion with only the language being studied used in the classroom.

Here is the DLIFL website:
http://www.dliflc.edu/index.html

And here is Wikipedia's take on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Language_Institute

Here is a description from a student's point of view
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/education/a/dliarticle.htm



Thanks for the additional information. I was aware of the Army's progress in that area. But as I said, methodology now used by subject area specialists in teaching second languages focuses on a more utilitarian approach. The assumption is that grammar and usage will follow once one begins to speak the language. My own personal experience bears that out.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: I hate circular definition....
    ... And we have an ESL councelor, and a, er... ... come in and not be able to read and not know English and take any dang ... Very soft language. ... Asian students. ...
    (rec.games.computer.ultima.dragons)
  • Re: NBC: Immigration Rallies Draw Thousands Nationwide
    ... Several districts in the Bay Area receive fixed funding from the state ... when you have a child who is in school because his parents are in the ... to meet the needs of students whose English language skills were lacking. ...
    (rec.music.artists.springsteen)
  • _Verum Et Factum Convertuntur_ (or: Surprised By Syntax)
    ... Students can't write clean English ... text and strategies for teaching your language to fellow students. ... that they are learning how to marshal arguments in ways that will ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Immigration Bill Will Kill GOP
    ... illiterate in English. ... support bilingual education, they do not support illegal immigration? ... The school provides ... so many different kinds of students, not much of anything is learned. ...
    (soc.retirement)
  • Re: Sneaky Words - a spelling conundrum.
    ... "The issue of whether or not children should wear school ... academically oriented English classes, i.e., those aimed at students ... I never see them here in Taiwan, ...
    (alt.usage.english)
Loading