Re: Robert Heinlein On Democracy


"El Castor" <No_One@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:34:26 -0500, "Harry Thompson" <me@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:


"El Castor" <No_One@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:52:16 -0500, "Harry Thompson" <me@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:


"El Castor" <No_One@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 07:55:18 -0500, "Harry Thompson" <me@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:


"El Castor" <No_One@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:47:32 -0700, Sir Frederick
<mmcneill@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:20:50 -0700, El Castor <No_One@xxxxxxxx>
wrote:

"The America of my time line is a laboratory example of what can
happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect
democracies throughout all histories. A perfect democracy, a "warm
body" democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count
equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction.. Once a
state
extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or
parasite,
that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the
plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses
without limit and that the productive members of the body politic
cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death,
or
in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader - the
barbarians enter Rome."

To Sail Beyond the Sunset
Robert A.Heinlein
http://thomasgwyndunbar.wordpress.com/2008/10/23/heinlein-on-democracy/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Sail_Beyond_the_Sunset
To Sail Beyond the Sunset is a science fiction novel by Robert A.
Heinlein
published in 1987. It was the last novel published before he died in
1988;
several books by the author were released posthumously, including a
full
novel:
For Us, The Living: A Comedy of Customs, published with a foreword
written
by
Spider Robinson.

True, but Robert Heinlein was a brilliant man, and his work was
often
intended as a moral commentary. In this case his words seem
remarkably
prescient.

Democracy is too important to be left to the people, hey?

What is there about what Heinlein said that causes you to disagree? He
isn't the first, nor the last, to have noted this basic flaw in an
otherwise good system.

I don't intend to disagree, I enjoy the irony too much.

But the Republicans, now. They claim to be the party of Joe Sixpack.
Heh!

And the Democrats claim to be the Party of income redistribution,
protectionism, high taxes, card check, and the Fairness Doctrine? I'm
impressed.

I see the Democrats ACCUSED of the above, far from being the above. They
are
also accused of felonious mopery, being against motherhood, hating apple
pie, wearing black hats, and more dastardy than I can summon up.

I think you know better.

Know better? Actually, Harry, I was being accurate.

High Taxes and Income Redistribution: Raise taxes on those making more
than $250,000 and give a tax "refund" to those who do not pay federal
income taxes -- in the guise of refunding payroll taxes. That's income
redistribution, and I object because it's those high wage earners who
are the innovators and job creators in society.

We are going to have to pay for the bailout somehow. If not by removing the
tax cuts for upper income people, let's hear your suggestion.


But, it doesn't end there because Obama will raise other taxes on
those making less than $250K -- one example:

"If we kept the payroll tax rate exactly the same but applied it to
all earnings and not just the first $97,000," Obama wrote this week in
an Iowa newspaper, "we could eliminate the entire Social Security
shortfall."
http://abcnews.go.com/politics/Story?id=3638710&page=1
That, would be a 7% increase on those earning much less than $250K,

The article says it is a discussion point, not a formal proposal. It has
been suggested by a number of people, but it is not well thought out.

and because there is no current SS shortfall it would just be spent
and replaced with worthless IOUs.

Are you yanking my chain? I will take all those worthless IOUs off your
hands, just give them to me.



Protectionism: "Within the next few months, the United States could
serve notice that it wants to renegotiate the North American Free
Trade Agreement (NAFTA). Democratic presidential contender Barack
Obama promised American voters last spring he would reopen the
15-year-old continental pact to protect their jobs."
http://www.thestar.com/FederalElection/article/515121

Your citation is concerned with the Canadian elections. It is an opinion
piece, not reportage.

Obama's commitment to "renegotiation" almost certainly will include
other trade agreements -- and he has been extremely vocal in his
opposition to free trade with Columbia. Face it -- unions have a
strangle hold on the Democrat party and unions oppose free trade based
on the notion that restraints on trade will "protect" American jobs.

There is nothing wrong with negotiating and renegotiating agreements. What
counts is the details. Your point is iffy and tendentious.


Card Check: "Also high on her agenda, Pelosi said, are "very
aggressive measures to stop global warming'' and a labor-backed "card
check'' proposal to require employers to negotiate with any union that
signs up a majority of a company's employees."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/10/BAGJGMSTAQ1.DTL
Card Check is a outrageous proposal by unions to end the secret ballot
in union organizing elections.

This article quotes Pelosi two years ago, and isn't relevant to my jest of
Republicans pretending to represent Joe Sixpack.

The article barely mentions "card check" and just says she supports a
"labor-backed "card check'' proposal to require employers to negotiate with
any union that signs up a majority of a company's employees."


If a Democrat congress passes it, Obama will sign it -- McCain would not.

You got a crystal ball?


Fairness Doctrine: "Nancy Pelosi (Dem-Ca), House Speaker, has
indicated her support in seeing the Fairness Doctrine restored."
http://www.chron.com/commons/persona.html?newspaperUserId=kengurley&plckController=PersonaBlog&plckScript=personaScript&plckElementId=personaDest&plckPersonaPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3AkengurleyPost%3A0967343f-d055-4bd0-8e5b-bd7d3a2e4255

Oh, fairness is absolutely horrible. What would that do to Murdoch? No
wonder you are terrified.

If Pelosi passes it, Obama will sign.

I approve too.

Let's remember how this sub-thread began. I made a crack about Republicans
pretending to be democrats (small d) by pretending to champion Joe Sixpack
because the irony amuses me. You derailed my amusement with irrelevant
suppositions about Obama, nearly half of which concern Nancy Pelosi rather
than Obama, and 1/4 of which concerned the Canadian election.

I realize that you are terrified out of your mind at the thought of Obama
winning, but get a grip man. The sun will still rise in the morning.


.

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