Re: Obama's Mandatory National Service Plan is Socialist

Islander wrote:
Rita wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:30:25 -0700, Islander <nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Evelyn wrote:
"Islander" <nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:Y6idnUSn2NpG72bVnZ2dnUVZ_rXinZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Rita wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 10:37:56 -0400, Alan Lichtenstein <arl@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Rita wrote:

( previous post snipped-follow thread )

Absolutely! At that age they think they know everything, are often disdainful of their parents experience and advice. It is the perfect age to let them grow a bit independent, to accomplish something they can be proud of, and to bridge the time from high school and youthful dependency, to independent adulthood and college. I have seen so many youth exchange students, usually high school seniors, who have benefitted enormously from a year abroad on their own, that it makes me really believe a national service of some kind right after high school would help a lot of kids really grow up to be better adults.
While I like the idea of government service for teens, my reason is
not that those years are "horrid" as Olly continually describes them.
They are years when kids begin to find their way apart from the
cocoon of their parent's ideas and to engage with their peers in
sometimes an exciting and sometimes a scary larger world. The fact
some go off the track does not mean the majority do.

My many children and now grandchildren never lost their way -- if
they did indeed goof up in minor matters they were treated gently by
their parents and thus were able to put the incidents behind them
with their confidence not destroyed.

I've thought about this alot and every child who becomes a teen has
to be given a certain license to make his or her own mistakes. How
else does one learn from experience. But if they are beaten down
with parental recriminations chances are the metaphorsis one has to
undergo in reaching adulthood will be longer and ever so more rocky.

Nature, I believe, has created the teen years for a purpose. It would
be more comfortable indeed for parents if kids retained every idea and
outlook of their own values and way of seeing the world.

But I believe there is an idealism and desire in teens to not be
replicas of their parents and that is how the world moves on.

Service to others as part of these years could certainly capture this
teen desire to make a difference in a very creative and wholesome way.
The opportunities for this service should be varied enough to interest
a wide range of teen personalities. Let them choose what plays to
their aspirations and their strengths. Something of their own wanting
and not the same imposed on all.
All both you and Evelyn write has much merit, but the issue is not whether there is merit in the outcome, but should such be mandated? Recall the Peace Corps, established as a deferrable alternative to the military draft( it still exists, BTW ). In fact, a domestic Peace Corps was contemplated, and a limited program actually established, but I believe, after the draft had ended.

IMHO, I do not believe that requiring such a program is desirable. People have a right to do with their lives as they wish, absent extreme circumstances, such as war or other national emergency, and should not have any years taken from them, because someone else deems that the experience they may get is both desirable for them personally, or financially and socially beneficial to the nation.

There exist, at present, opportunities for those who feel that giving service is personally fulfilling, and they can take advantage of those things right now. Mandating such service is undesirable, because it infringes on the right of self-determination of the individual.
Many high schools now require so many hours of community service of
some kind as a requirement for graduation. My grandkids have
benefited from this -- they chose diverse groups to volunteer with.
And all of them have enjoyed their experiences.
I have to agree with the idea of compulsory public service for young people with no exceptions.

There are several reasons, IMV.

1. The all volunteer army has been a mistake. It creates a culture that supports military solutions to international problems and which is increasingly separated from mainstream American culture. That is a problem.

2. We all have a responsibility to our society that goes beyond simply paying taxes or donating money to a favorite cause. There is nothing quite so educational as hands-on participation in attempting to solve difficult problems.

3. There is always a tension and a questioning between generations. That is a good thing, IMV. If we always perpetuated the beliefs and opinions of the past, there would be no opportunity for constructive change. If we were to let young people prevail, however, we would have anarchy. The generational change is always a balance between these two extremes and a period of shared experience for our young people would help to moderate the extremes, IMV.

I agree with you in principle, but in practice there may turn out to be some kids who really should not have to serve. See my post in this same thread in which I outlined some possible exceptions.
Yes, I had missed your post, but your points are well taken - there are certainly some who are unable to serve. I do not see national service as a cure-all for everything that afflicts some of our youth. It needs to be part of an overall strategy to help our young people reach their potential.

My approach to leadership, which I think is compatible with Barack's, is to pay close attention to what people are capable of doing and to help them rise to that capability. This is in stark contrast to those who seek only to favor those who are believed to have great potential and to blame the remainder for our failures.

We are too flawed to always be right in our choices. Much better, I think, to motivate people than to simply select those who we think have potential.

Who would have believed that a rebellious skinny black kid in Hawaii would rise to become President? There were people along the way who gave him a chance.

I don't think rebellious is a term that describes the young Obama.
He did have to confront his mixed racial heritage and he did struggle
to come to terms with who he was. But he came out stronger and not
damaged, even though he grew up with an absent father and a far less
than typical childhood.

His control of himself, his even temperament, his lack of a feeling
of any bitterness, and choosing to work hard rather than to assume
any sense of "entitlement" speak of him as a person who survived all
that without discernable character flaws. And when given a chance,
he measured up.

A host of folks have commented on this -- some of them Republicans.

Is "rebellious" too strong a term? I don't think so. His use of drugs in High School and at Occidental were self destructive and a sign of rebellion. To his credit, he rose above this. I would love to know how that happened. Was he influenced by others? Who?

However that happened, if we could bottle it we could solve some very serious societal problems.

This is a bit of experience that is a credit to Obama and I believe has shaped his life. I would definitely prefer to have someone with these credentials than those of a party-boy who spent most of his youth rebelling against his father and grandfather. What would McCain know of the problems in our inner city, much less how to solve them.

He wouldn't care to know or solve.
Remember, he strongly dislikes black people and will have no interest in
them or the Hispanics, once the election is over.
.

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