Re: Computer problem, need help

On Oct 10, 6:05 am, "Glenn" <mino...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"mg" <mgkel...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:58d6984d-0f40-4727-902c-546b75b827be@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Oct 9, 6:53 am, Glenn <mino...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:50:38 -0700 (PDT), mg <mgkel...@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On Oct 8, 3:22 pm, Glenn <mino...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:13:07 -0700 (PDT), mg <mgkel...@xxxxxxxxx>

I think you are overlooking some problems with the restore
utilities
provided to computer buyers:

PROBLEMS WITH FACTORY REINSTALL DISC
If you reinstall from a factory disc, it wipes out any updates
you
have installed on your OS drive. It also wipes out any
additional
programs or drivers that you have installed since you bought the
computer. In addition, it wipes out any data, including music
and
pictures that you might have on your hard drive. Factory restore
discs
that rely on a separate partition on the hard drive obviously
won't
work if the hard drive has been corrupted or quits working.

Your argument isn't valid without mentioning the failure mode
while
defining the three levels of backup and recovery. First a user
file
has been corrupted, use backup and restore. Second, a system file
is
faulty, use system restore and possible backup and restore if the
system fault corrupted user data. Third, the manufactures image
or
whatever was added before the first system checkpoint is faulty.
Use
restore manager. If factory restore is on the hard disk, it's
probably there because the disks are mirrored, but if one is
paranoid,
one can create a restore disk. I suspect that other than during
the
first week of operation, a restore of the manufactures images
shouldn't happen, but if it does, it's due to incompetent
diagnosis or
user error. System restore doesn't impact user files and the
system
creates system only files early and often. I'm not going to
explain
the theory behind checkpoints after fix or update install but
it's at
the heart of all software recovery programs.

PROBLEMS WITH MICROSOFT'S RESTORE UTILITY
(1) The Microsoft restore utility only operates if you can get
the
computer to boot.
(2) Microsoft's restore utility only goes back a limited period
of
time. If the problem dates back beyond that you will not be able
to
fix the problem.
(3) Sometimes Microsoft's restore utility doesn't work even if
the
checkpoint is still available.
(4) I have had one case where Microsoft's restore utility
actually
trashed the data on my hard drive.

1) I suggest f11 or a boot disc, but again it all depends on
defining
the failure mode. If it's totally unresponsive, there's a
hardware
problem and a different strategy is used.

This is to complicated for the average user and as I said before
Microsoft's System Restore utility isn't always reliable.

2) That's why I suggest periodically doing a manual create system
restore disc. Currently I have thirty restores without the need
to
save one. Again, the problem escaped attention through thirty
updates
or restores?

My system restore currently goes back about 3 months and it is very
possible that the problem(s) could occur before that and if they
did
you are SOL. In addition, as I said before, System Restore doesn't
always work and my experience has been that the further back you go
the less likely it is to work. Even if it does work, you will lose
all
the software installed since that date and all the Microsoft
updates.

3) The failure mode must first be defined before the strategy can
be
faulted.
4) I have no idea, what did the MS technicians say. You did
create a
trouble report, didn't you?

Calling Microsoft to solve a problem isn't a solution and even if
you
do call them, there's no guaranty they'll be able to solve the
problem.

Finally, MS doesn't send their software and hardware technicians
through school and then give them on the job training just to be
second guessed by an amateur like you. If the strategy is faulty,
explain it to them, don't pretend that you are an expert in this
area.
I was twenty years ago, but I don't tell MS how to do their job,
I'm
just glad that they haven't got stuck in the past.

Microsoft does a pretty good job with their System Restore utility
given the fact that they are limited to only one hard drive, but
their
System Restore utility doesn't always work. The solution is to use
two
hard drives and a reliable backup utility like Ghost.

How do large corporations repair their employ's computers? I can
tell
you that Intel, for instance, uses Norton Ghost. They don't mess
around calling Microsoft and they don't spend hours going through
30
restore set points and then hoping one of them will work.

I'll say it again. You have only your experience, MS employs
experts.
You haven't told MS that they are wrong and you are right so you
have
no credibility for all your problems may have been user errors.

Intel provides the mirroring code, if they don't use it, then they
are an unreliable provider and HP needs to find another source. The
best way to produce robust code is for the programmers and engineers
to use their own product.

What's your background that gives credibility to your solution? I
was
the IBM site software reliability representative. I saw all the
software and hardware problem data. I worked with our human factors
department to help reduce the number of user errors. I helped to
introduce serviceability features to help with problem isolation.
You
have no standing. Your advice is worthless. If MS and I won't listen
to you, why should anyone?

Glenn

MS mail isn't properly denoting the authors so I'll have to use
quotes.

"My solution is to try Microsoft's Restore utility first. Then if that
doesn't work I use my preferred backup utility, which is Ghost. This
is basically, the same system Microsoft recommends, except they
reference their own backup utility, of course. So, I don't understand
your argument that a backup utility isn't necessary when Microsoft
itself recognizes that it is."

Neither do I as I never wrote that, see my comment for the above
message:

Your argument isn't valid without mentioning the failure mode
while
defining the three levels of backup and recovery. First a user
file
has been corrupted, use backup and restore. Second, a system file
is
faulty, use system restore and possible backup and restore if the
system fault corrupted user data. Third, the manufactures image
or
whatever was added before the first system checkpoint is faulty.
Use
restore manager.

There is another program which is a complete, system and customer,
backup program but it's not included with the system.  Perhaps you are
referring to system restore?  This strategy is the best I have seen
and if their is flaws, they should be reported to MS so others won't
see the problem.  With blu-ray data disc 24 GB capacity, I can see no
reason to use a fixed disk as that limits the safety of the data in
case of fire or other disasters (always keep a copy of critical data
off-site).

"If you were arguing that Microsoft's backup utility is better than
Ghost that would make some sense, but to argue that a backup utility
isn't necessary at all is irrational. In my particular case I tried
Microsoft's XP backup utility years ago and it reformatted by "C"
drive and then reported that it was unable to restore the backup."

Perhaps is was your report that alerted MS to the problem and it's now
fixed Vista so I won't see it.

"It is possible that Microsoft has fixed it's backup utility since I
tested it. However, I now have a system that has withstood the test of
time and works reliably under a wide variety of circumstances. It
works with SATA and PATA hard drives. It works with partitioned hard
drives. It works with Windows 98. It's very reliable and easy to use.
So, there is no reason for me to go back and test Microsoft's backup
utility again since doing so would involve a lot of work and I
wouldn't gain anything."

If you would have informed MS, they would have done the testing as
your problem would have become one of their test cases.

"Is any of this making sense to you?"

At IBM we divided the customers into three classes, leading edge,
typical, trailing edge.  We often invited leading edge to use
pre-release software (and hardware).  This wasn't to be confused with
beta test (we still head system assurance}, but due to the long delay
between code release and ship, it gave us a opportunity to verify the
product with experienced users.  This strategy meant that the best
problem finders were first in line.  My guess is that in the PC field,
there are no leading edge, just typical and trailing edge so the
strategy had to change.  First priority is system code because it
effects the most users.  With that in mind, knowing that the largest
category of problems is user error and that hardware diagnostics are
quick to run, the strategy is check the hardware, interview the user
and find the latest checkpoint where the problem doesn't exist.  If
the customer hasn't been diligent in when and how he implements his
backup strategy, we can always go back to day one.  Maintenance has to
be structured along these lines or else every customer will be
reinventing the wheel.  Whether your strategy works for you or not
isn't the question, the question is what are you doing for those users
that haven't chanced upon your problem?

I have about a dozen friends and relatives that I have built computers
for (usually for free) and I fix their computers when they have
problems. Some people have a lot more problems than others. I suspect
that some husbands are surfing porn sites and getting pasted, but I
really don't know and I don't say anything.

When I build a computer, I put two drives in it. Usually, I try to use
only a 40GB or 60GB hard drive for the "C" drive and I instruct them
to put all their important, big files like music and pictures for
instance on the "D" drive which is usually at least 160GB. Before I
give them their computer, I put Ghost backups on the "D" drive and I
also put the final backup on DVDs and keep the DVDs for my files.
Typically the OS, the drivers and the software only use about 12GB of
space on the "C" drive and Ghost has a compression option, so it
generally only requires two 4.7GB DVDs. Some of my friends and
relatives now know how to do their own Ghost backups and Ghost
restores, but not all of them. When they have problems that can't be
fixed with Microsoft's System Restore utility, I have them bring their
computer over and it generally only takes me about 15-30 minutes to
put the Ghost backup back on their "C" drive and then they are up and
running again.



.

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    ... Having a backup is often the only solution. ... system restore for software failures ... creating a large number of system restore files, but just your luck, ... has problems with SATA drives and perhaps problems with partitioned ...
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