Re: Computer problem, need help

"mg" <mgkelson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:58d6984d-0f40-4727-902c-546b75b827be@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Oct 9, 6:53 am, Glenn <mino...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:50:38 -0700 (PDT), mg <mgkel...@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:



>On Oct 8, 3:22 pm, Glenn <mino...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:13:07 -0700 (PDT), mg <mgkel...@xxxxxxxxx>

>> >I think you are overlooking some problems with the restore
>> >utilities
>> >provided to computer buyers:

>> >PROBLEMS WITH FACTORY REINSTALL DISC
>> >If you reinstall from a factory disc, it wipes out any updates
>> >you
>> >have installed on your OS drive. It also wipes out any
>> >additional
>> >programs or drivers that you have installed since you bought the
>> >computer. In addition, it wipes out any data, including music
>> >and
>> >pictures that you might have on your hard drive. Factory restore
>> >discs
>> >that rely on a separate partition on the hard drive obviously
>> >won't
>> >work if the hard drive has been corrupted or quits working.

>> Your argument isn't valid without mentioning the failure mode
>> while
>> defining the three levels of backup and recovery. First a user
>> file
>> has been corrupted, use backup and restore. Second, a system file
>> is
>> faulty, use system restore and possible backup and restore if the
>> system fault corrupted user data. Third, the manufactures image
>> or
>> whatever was added before the first system checkpoint is faulty.
>> Use
>> restore manager. If factory restore is on the hard disk, it's
>> probably there because the disks are mirrored, but if one is
>> paranoid,
>> one can create a restore disk. I suspect that other than during
>> the
>> first week of operation, a restore of the manufactures images
>> shouldn't happen, but if it does, it's due to incompetent
>> diagnosis or
>> user error. System restore doesn't impact user files and the
>> system
>> creates system only files early and often. I'm not going to
>> explain
>> the theory behind checkpoints after fix or update install but
>> it's at
>> the heart of all software recovery programs.

>> >PROBLEMS WITH MICROSOFT'S RESTORE UTILITY
>> >(1) The Microsoft restore utility only operates if you can get
>> >the
>> >computer to boot.
>> >(2) Microsoft's restore utility only goes back a limited period
>> >of
>> >time. If the problem dates back beyond that you will not be able
>> >to
>> >fix the problem.
>> >(3) Sometimes Microsoft's restore utility doesn't work even if
>> >the
>> >checkpoint is still available.
>> >(4) I have had one case where Microsoft's restore utility
>> >actually
>> >trashed the data on my hard drive.

>> 1) I suggest f11 or a boot disc, but again it all depends on
>> defining
>> the failure mode. If it's totally unresponsive, there's a
>> hardware
>> problem and a different strategy is used.

>This is to complicated for the average user and as I said before
>Microsoft's System Restore utility isn't always reliable.

>> 2) That's why I suggest periodically doing a manual create system
>> restore disc. Currently I have thirty restores without the need
>> to
>> save one. Again, the problem escaped attention through thirty
>> updates
>> or restores?

>My system restore currently goes back about 3 months and it is very
>possible that the problem(s) could occur before that and if they
>did
>you are SOL. In addition, as I said before, System Restore doesn't
>always work and my experience has been that the further back you go
>the less likely it is to work. Even if it does work, you will lose
>all
>the software installed since that date and all the Microsoft
>updates.

>> 3) The failure mode must first be defined before the strategy can
>> be
>> faulted.
>> 4) I have no idea, what did the MS technicians say. You did
>> create a
>> trouble report, didn't you?

>Calling Microsoft to solve a problem isn't a solution and even if
>you
>do call them, there's no guaranty they'll be able to solve the
>problem.
>
>> Finally, MS doesn't send their software and hardware technicians
>> through school and then give them on the job training just to be
>> second guessed by an amateur like you. If the strategy is faulty,
>> explain it to them, don't pretend that you are an expert in this
>> area.
>> I was twenty years ago, but I don't tell MS how to do their job,
>> I'm
>> just glad that they haven't got stuck in the past.

>Microsoft does a pretty good job with their System Restore utility
>given the fact that they are limited to only one hard drive, but
>their
>System Restore utility doesn't always work. The solution is to use
>two
>hard drives and a reliable backup utility like Ghost.

>How do large corporations repair their employ's computers? I can
>tell
>you that Intel, for instance, uses Norton Ghost. They don't mess
>around calling Microsoft and they don't spend hours going through
>30
>restore set points and then hoping one of them will work.

I'll say it again. You have only your experience, MS employs
experts.
You haven't told MS that they are wrong and you are right so you
have
no credibility for all your problems may have been user errors.

Intel provides the mirroring code, if they don't use it, then they
are an unreliable provider and HP needs to find another source. The
best way to produce robust code is for the programmers and engineers
to use their own product.

What's your background that gives credibility to your solution? I
was
the IBM site software reliability representative. I saw all the
software and hardware problem data. I worked with our human factors
department to help reduce the number of user errors. I helped to
introduce serviceability features to help with problem isolation.
You
have no standing. Your advice is worthless. If MS and I won't listen
to you, why should anyone?

Glenn

MS mail isn't properly denoting the authors so I'll have to use
quotes.

"My solution is to try Microsoft's Restore utility first. Then if that
doesn't work I use my preferred backup utility, which is Ghost. This
is basically, the same system Microsoft recommends, except they
reference their own backup utility, of course. So, I don't understand
your argument that a backup utility isn't necessary when Microsoft
itself recognizes that it is."

Neither do I as I never wrote that, see my comment for the above
message:

>> Your argument isn't valid without mentioning the failure mode
>> while
>> defining the three levels of backup and recovery. First a user
>> file
>> has been corrupted, use backup and restore. Second, a system file
>> is
>> faulty, use system restore and possible backup and restore if the
>> system fault corrupted user data. Third, the manufactures image
>> or
>> whatever was added before the first system checkpoint is faulty.
>> Use
>> restore manager.

There is another program which is a complete, system and customer,
backup program but it's not included with the system. Perhaps you are
referring to system restore? This strategy is the best I have seen
and if their is flaws, they should be reported to MS so others won't
see the problem. With blu-ray data disc 24 GB capacity, I can see no
reason to use a fixed disk as that limits the safety of the data in
case of fire or other disasters (always keep a copy of critical data
off-site).

"If you were arguing that Microsoft's backup utility is better than
Ghost that would make some sense, but to argue that a backup utility
isn't necessary at all is irrational. In my particular case I tried
Microsoft's XP backup utility years ago and it reformatted by "C"
drive and then reported that it was unable to restore the backup."

Perhaps is was your report that alerted MS to the problem and it's now
fixed Vista so I won't see it.

"It is possible that Microsoft has fixed it's backup utility since I
tested it. However, I now have a system that has withstood the test of
time and works reliably under a wide variety of circumstances. It
works with SATA and PATA hard drives. It works with partitioned hard
drives. It works with Windows 98. It's very reliable and easy to use.
So, there is no reason for me to go back and test Microsoft's backup
utility again since doing so would involve a lot of work and I
wouldn't gain anything."

If you would have informed MS, they would have done the testing as
your problem would have become one of their test cases.

"Is any of this making sense to you?"

At IBM we divided the customers into three classes, leading edge,
typical, trailing edge. We often invited leading edge to use
pre-release software (and hardware). This wasn't to be confused with
beta test (we still head system assurance}, but due to the long delay
between code release and ship, it gave us a opportunity to verify the
product with experienced users. This strategy meant that the best
problem finders were first in line. My guess is that in the PC field,
there are no leading edge, just typical and trailing edge so the
strategy had to change. First priority is system code because it
effects the most users. With that in mind, knowing that the largest
category of problems is user error and that hardware diagnostics are
quick to run, the strategy is check the hardware, interview the user
and find the latest checkpoint where the problem doesn't exist. If
the customer hasn't been diligent in when and how he implements his
backup strategy, we can always go back to day one. Maintenance has to
be structured along these lines or else every customer will be
reinventing the wheel. Whether your strategy works for you or not
isn't the question, the question is what are you doing for those users
that haven't chanced upon your problem?

.

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