Re: The tax bight/bite


"Islander" <nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:v9CdnU5yCsWw7xbVnZ2dnUVZ_qfinZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Jerry Okamura wrote:

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Jerry Okamura wrote:

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Jerry Okamura wrote:

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Jerry Okamura wrote:

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Jerry Okamura wrote:

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"Islander" <nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:ad-dnYhoauntmRnVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
AndyS wrote:

Islander wrote:
As for me, I've had enough of "guns and butter" and "go out shopping"
kinds of leadership. We have enormous challenges ahead and we need a
leader who can inspire and motivate people. I think that we have a
chance at that in this election and I hope that we have the guts to
elect him.


Andy writes:

Good point.

In my opinion, we don't need a leader who "has the answers".....

We need a leader who has a VISION......

He can always hire people with special knowledge to help him
achieve it........ and for that matter experience means almost
nothing.

I am afraid, however, that if Obama is elected, he will go the way of
most previous reformers, and end up falling into lockstep with "the
system"......

... so I don't really plan on getting my hopes up.

Andy in Eureka, Texas

We have been screwed over a lot and I can appreciate cynicism. Guess I am just hoping that perhaps this time...

Let me suggest that there are a whole lot of known problems that this government faces. When someone says they think our government needs to "change" I would think everyone would agree with that. But the difference is, what change are we talking about, and is that the kind of change we really want. As the old Wendy's commerical said, "where is the beef"? What kind of changes is Obama really saying is needed? So far all I have heard are relatively small changes, which does not address the major problems with our government and society. Has he said what he woul do to insure that we have fewer poor people in this country? Has he a solution to the illegal alien problem? Has he a plan to reduce the federal debt? Has he said what he would do about the simple fact that the three big entitlement programs are eating up a bigger and bigger percentage of total government spending, which in turn is crippling any other efforts to spend money of some other priorities? True leadership is sticking your neck out and telling people you are going to address problems and propose solutions, that is going to get a lot of accusations and complaints, from those who do not want to hear that we have to make sacrifices and make some difficult choices that we do not want to make. That is leadership.

No, it is impossible for one person to spell out all the solutions in the detail that you seem to be searching for. Neither Obama nor McCain has attempted that. In looking at their record and their positions on the issues, however, I have to conclude that Obama has a deeper understanding of the issues and is surrounding himself with knowledgeable people who can be depended upon to work constructively to build solutions. That is leadership. As Andy said, a leader outlines the vision and hires people with the specialized knowledge to help him achieve it.

Why is it "impossible"? These candidates have the resources of all the "experts" they can afford to have working on ideas about how to solve these problems, don't they? I am willing to also bet that there are experts who would love to be able to do it for nothing at all. And Obama has a ton of money, if he wants to spend it on hiring experts, can't he? And yes, neither Obama or McCain has attempted to address these issues, so what? I am saying we should demand that they address these issues. Now, if you do not care about anything that you think is wrong, then that is up to you. It is not what I think.

Meanwhile, McCain is surrounding himself with the same advisers who served the Bush administration, in particular I am concerned about the number of neocons who are represented in his closest advisers.

I do not care who either candidate "surrounds" themselves with. I care that they tell me how they plan to solve the problems that I am concerned about. When they do that, then we can argue about how "biased" the advice may or may not be. But you cannot argue about that part of the discussion, if they do not even come up with solutions based on what their advisors give them.

What is McCain's vision? More of the same?

Go to his web site. Then tell us, what part of his positions are "more of the same" from your perspective. And while you are at it, tell us why you think a specific proposal which you believe is "more of the same" is the wrong thing to do.

I have already done that, Jerry. And, I've also looked at their respective actions in Congress, the bills that they have introduced, what they have cosponsored, and their voting record. McCain voted with his party to support the Bush agenda 88% of the time. This is higher than the Republican party loyalty average of 80%! The examples that some like to point to where McCain voted against the Bush agenda are mostly old news - took place in 2001 when McCain was still pissed at Bush for the treatment that he got in the 2000 primaries.

His record speaks volumes. While he likes to present himself as a maverick, his record brands him as simply a third Bush term.

Convenient. You showed your biases by telling me what McCain has done, and left out Obama's voting record..... But you did not answer the question I asked.

No, I answered why McCain is "more of the same." Obama's voting record is not relevant to your question, but his record strongly opposes the Bush agenda. That is a good thing, IMV.

If you are serious about the question of why "more of the same" is the wrong thing to do, then you must have been asleep for the past seven and one half years.

I do not want more of the same, and I have posted many times about what I want this government to do, that they are not doing. They are NOT doing a darn thing about deficit spending, they are not doing a darn thing to reduce the national debt, along with a host of other problems I want these people to address. I have also said that the odds that anything that I want "changed" is not likely to happen "if" the Presidential candidates are not even willing to discuss or plededged to address, or have a plan on how they will address the problems that I want them to address. You are focused because of your interanl basis on what this President has done, or not done, but that is not going to solve any of the problems. He is not going to be our President for very long. But will future Presidents, starting with the next one, address any of my concerns or for that matter your concerns. I made up a list of my concerns, that I want the next President should address, which up to now they have not addressed, have you made a similiar list and found out what they would do if they become the President? Have you asked the news media to get the answers to those things you want the next President to address? I have asked our news media whenever I get an email address from them, asking them to get the answers to the issues I am most concerned about. So far, not one of them has even addressed one of the issues I am concerned about. And if they do not do that, when I step into the voting booth next November, I will most likely still not get the answers to the questions I want answers to.

So, the answer is very simple, Jerry. If none of the candidates address the issues that are important to you, you should express your displeasure by not voting!

Not a chance in hell of that happening. I will vote because it is my duty and responsibility to vote. I am only arguing that it would be nice if I knew what they planned on doing about some of the issues I am conccerned about, rather than buying what is essentially a "hope" that once elected they will address some of my concerns. And I would hope, but apparently I am not going to get what I hope for, is that intelligent people like you would also want to know what they will do about the issues that are of concerned to you, and not be "forced" to buy a pig in the proverbial poke.

Commendable, but you are going to have to put in some work to satisfy yourself. Their web sites are a good starting point and it sometimes takes a bit of digging to find what you want. The Obama website can be a bit overwhelming, but if you dig down into the Issues menu, you will find well-thought-out position papers.


What makes you believe I do not do exactly what you are suggesting I do?

Then, you can go to thomas.gov to find out what legislation they have put forward in Congress. It is very difficult to track the progress of that legislation even though there are links to related legislation. Usually a new bill is referred to a committee where it may reemerge as part of another bill. It helps sometimes to google the bill number or title to find out through press reports how it has fared.

I am not really interested in what "legislation" they support or do not support. What I am interested in is, what are these guys going to do about the issues that are of concern to me. For instance, what are they going to do about deficit spending and the national debt. Have they said they would have a balanced budget every year they are in that office? Have they said they would try their very best to pass a balanced budget amendment? I am willing to bet, you cannot find the answers to these questions.

Then, you can go to votesmart.org to find out what a candidates voting record is on a whole list of issues. They also include a lot of information on a candidate including speeches and public statements. These are pretty easy to search and navigate.

I visit that web site just about every day.

The Washington Post also publishes an excellent searchable data base at
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/

I put a lot of stock on who a candidate includes as advisers or staff. This is very difficult to assemble, but whenever I hear of someone described as a member of the candidate's inner circle, I add their biography and publications if any to a data base that I maintain. There was a very comprehensive list of McCain advisers listed during the primaries in azcentral.com, but I see that it has been removed. But, I understand that you don't care about advisers.

I am not interested in knowing what Congress is doing, I am interested in what the next President will do.

So, you see that there is an enormous amount of solid information out there, but you have to dig to get exactly what you are looking for.

Personally, I've done that digging and with a few exceptions I'm delighted with Obama's policies and record.

Okay, exactly what policies that Obama has adopted that you are "delighted" in. His stance on illegal immigration, deficit spending, what he will do about reducing, his position on the balanced budget amendment, the National Debt, his position about what to do about Social Security, or the other two big entitlement programs which are consuming a larger and larger percentage of total government spending, or his ideas about what to do about the fact the the interest on all the debt that the government is obligated to pay is growing each and every year, does he support CAGW's proposal of how to get control of pork barrel spending, and does he have a solution to what some of us complain about when it comes to earmarks, do you know under what circumstances he would consider using our military in a foriegn country, what authority he would get before you used our military, when if ever he would use our nuclear arsenal, what his position is on the Strategic Defnese Initiative (would you stop funding the program, or would he continue funding the program), what is he going to do to prevent global warming from occuring... Just a few questions that you should be able to answer since you know what his positions are.

Jerry, I am not going to waste the time to look up references to answer your questions. I will differ with you strongly on using the legislative records on both candidates. It is the best information that we have on what they believe as evidenced by what they have actually done, not what they promise to do. I've previously posted McCain's voting record as evidence that he is an advocate for continued Bush policy. That, in itself, is justification for voting against him.

I have also previously posted on Obama's record and position on issues like education, veteran's benefits, the deficit, earmarks, and other issues that are important to me. I do not remove my comments from the archives, so you can find them there.

Otherwise, you are on your own. Do the research.

that is your right to do so.

.

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