Re: Obama's Remarks on Retirement Security

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:31:39 -0700 (PDT), allan.sanger@xxxxxxxxx
wrote:

On Jun 20, 5:18 am, Rumpelstiltskin
<PleaseDoNotReplyByEm...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 04:10:04 -0700 (PDT), allan.san...@xxxxxxxxx
wrote:



On Jun 19, 9:01 pm, Rumpelstiltskin
<PleaseDoNotReplyByEm...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:25:52 -0700 (PDT), allan.san...@xxxxxxxxx
wrote:

On Jun 19, 6:19 pm, Islander <nos...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
allan.san...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Jun 19, 3:15 pm, Rumpelstiltskin
<PleaseDoNotReplyByEm...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:26:43 -0700, Islander <nos...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

<snip>

Nope. You still don't get it. But that is OK. I'm happy with with I
do and you are only wondering if you missed something important. As
long as you are happy with your investment strategy, you should stick
with it.
I probably shouldn't stick my nose in here, but I get the
impression you were talking about reducing your taxes
to zero for a given year, whereas Allan was talking
about making a profit. Two completely different things.
If so, you've had a long exchange talking past each
other without resolving that, but maybe I'm missing
something and shouldn't have stuck my nose in.

You are always welcome to comment even if I may not agree with some
things you say.

I think Islander has painted himself into a corner and is unwilling to
admit it. If he can't explain how a 3 dollar gain offset by a 3
dollar loss somehow got him tax free income but can do it, it is too
good to be true. And you know what they say about things that sound
to good to b e true.

al

I have made a serious mistake here and it didn't have anything to do
with my math. The mistake was talking too much on usenet about my
personal finances. You seem like a decent person, but there is another
here who is attempting to cause me trouble. I've been audited, don't
like it, and while everything that I do is legal, jousting with the IRS
is time consuming, annoying, and can be expensive. So, I am dropping
this topic and will be more careful in the future.

Meanwhile, be careful of those who reveal personal information on
usenet. You never know what they will stoop to.

Congratulations on the consummate cop out. If I tell you I'd have to
kill you.

When you started I should have known better - my bad. Won't happen
again.

al

Oh, you haven't been around here long enough. There are
at least two people here quite capable of doing something like
that, though one of them might be out of commission since he
seems to me to be on the run from US law now, and he might
be leery of any dealings with the US government.

Well if the Islander is doing something illegal to avoid taxes he
deserves what he gets. I don't have a lot of confidence that he is
doing anything new or different than what any savvy investor does.
And his inability to describe what he does at all makes me even wonder
if he is in the savvy category.

al

I didn't see anything illegal in what he did. He balanced
selling winners and losers to avoid taxes, which is perfectly
legal. I've done it, as have most other people.

Of that I have no doubt. I'm still looking for the tax free income
that happens - which is what I was asking about. Like I said, either
what he does is illegal or what hew does doesn't generate any new
wealth, just converts existing wealth to consumption.



"Tax free income" was your take on it, but I don't recall
Islander saying anything like that. Maybe he did, but even
if he did, the rest of what he said made it plain to me that
he was talking about avoiding taxes legally. Perhaps
avoiding paying taxes one might have to pay if one were
less careful to avoid them might be regarded as "income"
in a way, though it's a stretch.



So much for the old horse.

He said that the audit didn't turn up anything illegal, but
that it was a huge hassle. I hate filling out tax forms, and
dread audits myself, even to the point that the most
important consideration by far for me in any financial deal
is whether it will complicate my taxes. So far, I've never
been audited.

I try to avoid complications but every year the Feds decide that they
need to increase them for me. And I have been audited - twice. Once
was random and the second they disallowed a deduction and then
reversed themselves. Apparently they are willing to admit they erred.




The audit itself for me would be a nightmare, like doing
taxes in the first place, but longer.

I think the fact that I make sure my taxes are going to
be simple might have kept me from audits. I don't know
how "random" the random audits really are. Perhaps
simple taxes such as mine are excluded from the process
because there's not much of anything that might be
questionable.




I've even said in this group that I'd be willing to go along
with a consumption tax as a *complete* replacement for
income tax, just to eliminate the worst day of most years,
the day I do taxes. Doing taxes is such a waste of time,
and far more a disruption of my serenity. If a proposed
replacement tax collection method weren't complete
though, and we still had to do tax forms, that would be
absolutely worthless because one would still have the
hassle of getting all one's information together and filling
out those accursèd forms. Taxes are the only reason I
ever have to bother figuring out how much money I get.

I agree - the consumption tax has a definite appeal. No one escapes
and the more you consume the more you pay. I just picked up Neal
Boortz Fair Tax book from a friend. It's a bit dated (2005) now but
will likely prove an interesting read.



As I said though, I'm for it only if it COMPLETELY replaces
income tax. Personally, I do regard consumption tax as far
less than ideal, its main virtue to me (a big one) being that it
would free people from the onerous task of computing taxes.

One big problem with initiating a consumption tax of course
is that people who have already saved money have already
paid non-consumption taxes on that money, so with
consumption taxes they'd be paying again, whereas new
money would only be taxed when it was spent, not when it
was earned. I guess that's all peanuts compared to the
collapse of the dollar, though.

Another problem is that consumption tax does nothing to
tamp down what I have called the "parasitic" effect on
society of great and of inherited wealth. England has rid
herself of most of her parasitic "aristocracy". She did that
with inheritance taxes ("Death taxes" as they are called
under some propaganda constructs). England would still
have those worthless parasites drinking everybody else's
blood, if there were only income and consumption taxes.




-- begin tirade --

Those tax forms drive people of a mathematical bent
crazy, because they seem deliberately designed to mask
and thwart any semblance of logic. Pretty often I figure
out first what the heck the IRS is aiming at, then do a
one-minute calculation to see what the result should be,
then spend an hour filling out those damned forms and
going over them again because the result I get doesn't
match my one-minute calculation. The one-minute
calculation is always right. The problem is always that
I missed something or misplaced something on those
damned forms.

After I'm done, I still go over everything the
straightforward way to make sure the result I got on the
forms is reasonable, and I didn't miss putting something
in a box, or add up the wrong useless boxes, or add in
something senseless where I was supposed to but
then didn't remove it later where it was supposed to be
removed.

-- end tirade --

I have an accountant/tax guy - and I also started do my Federal using
Turbo Tax. The tax guy usually has a couple of alternatives that move
liability around but in the end the differences are nominal. I should
drop him, but he does other stuff too which makes filling out Turbo
easier. There is a lot of work just organizing the information BEFORE
you even start to fill in the forms. That's his job.

al


I used a tax program a couple of times, but found it to be
more trouble than it was worth. That's just me though,
because I hate feeling I'm not in complete control.

I think the federal government will calculate your taxes
for you, if you want and it's not complicated. After I finally
get rid of all the complications in my own taxes, which I
don't trust the government accountants to have the time
to deal with, maybe I'll let the government compute my
taxes, since they have all the data they need anyway.
These last few years when my income has not been too
high, I've just been sending in my entire anticipated
estimated taxes for the coming year on April 15, just so
I don't have to remember to send in other payments.
This year I did send only the first part on April 15, and
I sent in the rest earlier this month, because I'd just
taken out a big CD and didn't have a whole lot of money
in my checking account on April 15. But by June I did,
so I sent in the rest of the anticipated taxes just to be
done with it. The piddling interest I lose thereby isn't
worth having to plan for and remember the quarterly
payments.






.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Obamas Remarks on Retirement Security
    ... taxes in the first place, ... is that people who have already saved money have already ... I definitely would want to file something to get the tax money ... on the consumption tax paid with after tax income. ...
    (soc.retirement)
  • Re: Obamas Remarks on Retirement Security
    ... taxes in the first place, ... is that people who have already saved money have already ... I definitely would want to file something to get the tax money ... on the consumption tax paid with after tax income. ...
    (soc.retirement)
  • Re: Obamas Remarks on Retirement Security
    ... taxes in the first place, ... is that people who have already saved money have already ... I definitely would want to file something to get the tax money ... on the consumption tax paid with after tax income. ...
    (soc.retirement)
  • Re: Obamas Remarks on Retirement Security
    ... taxes in the first place, ... is that people who have already saved money have already ... I definitely would want to file something to get the tax money ... on the consumption tax paid with after tax income. ...
    (soc.retirement)
  • Re: Obamas Remarks on Retirement Security
    ... selling winners and losers to avoid taxes, ... "Tax free income" was your take on it, ... ever have to bother figuring out how much money I get. ...
    (soc.retirement)