Re: French And CERN Build Massive Particle Accelerator (Black Hole Generator) Unknown Planetary Risk To Create Artificial BIG BANG

On Tue, 13 May 2008 09:33:23 -0700 (PDT), al Guacamole <aet@xxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On May 12, 10:36 am, Rumpelstiltskin
<PleaseDoNotReplyByEm...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mon, 12 May 2008 09:01:32 -0700 (PDT),alGuacamole<a...@xxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Rumpelstiltskin wrote:

I'm not sure what you're getting at there. We can see other
stars and quasars, so light can leave THEIR neighborhood.

But can they see us? Or is our space so curved that they can not?

That sounds like an ad-hoc stretch to me. It hearkens back
to the days when the earth was the center of the solar system
and of the whole universe, so that earth was "special".

It's just a speculation that if our area of space is curved, then we
can see outside light but they may not be able to see us. There are
voids according to the wikipedia link that you have earlier left here
(I've trimmed because it's getting hard to read this posting) that are
millions of light years between lumps of matter in the universe.

It's the galactic version of a black hole where space-time is so
curved near a black hole that no light can escape.



OK, if you're saying the voids are not really voids, but
places where space-time is locally curved such that their
light doesn't reach us, that's a thought I've not heard of
before but it removes the "principle of mediocrity"
objection that we're "special", so I see your logic. We
do have a lot to learn still. There's the "dark matter"
conjecture to explain the "missing mass" problem, but
we haven't found the "dark matter" yet. There are
some baffling instances with red shifts, where objects
show signs of being associated with each other (such
as apparent connecting filaments or apparent distortion
of one object from the gravity of the other object) but
which have wildly different redshifts, which troubles our
whole idea of the expansion of the universe being the
only major factor in redshifting of diffuse objects.




That gravitation affects space is obvious. But a good theory with
gravitons has not emerged. There are theories on the microscopic
quantum level, but a general theory needs to include gravitation and
can be tested. No one has seen gravitons yet. Perhaps the HIggs Boson
will be progress in that direction???


I don't really know what we'll learn from finding the Higgs
boson, other than confirmation of the theorization that
requires it. I'm not too troubled with not seeing gravitons
yet. My suspicion about all these "particles" that represent
"forces" is that nature might be playing tricks on us. That
feeling comes partly from my devotion to "many worlds", in
which I see such particles as possibly being just artifacts
of splitting "events" between "worlds" (Where even the
"worlds" are just artifacts of our point of view). It seems
odd to me that an apparently continuous force can be
represented by discrete real particles, but everything in
QM seems odd to us "macro" and arguably "emergent"
beings, of course.





Nietzsche said God is Dead (supposedly - I don't remember
ever encountering that phrase in his own words, though
everybody says that he said it). In the sense of "the belief in
gods is dead to the intellectual world", I'd agree. The pope
was right to condemn Galileo, because Galileo was in fact
destroying religion, though that was not his intent. Newton
took it further, and Darwin finished the job, in spades. In a
real sense, of course, gods never were, unless you call the
fact of existence itself "God", which is a possible tack but
I'd say not a helpful one.

You mean a God which has no effect on our existence except to cause it
is not "helpful" or useful to us in our interactions with the world? I
agree.

Yes, and when something is undetectable and has no effect,
there's eventually no reason to continue to think it exists, or at
least that it only exists as my herds of elephants exist, who
wander the streets of New York, have magical powers that
make sure there's no traffic and everybody is looking in some
other direction when they pass, and that the output of all
detection devices is modified so as not to reveal their presence.
In the sense that those elephants exist (and of course they
cannot be proven not to exist), a god such as you propose
also exists.

At one time, theorists believe that a material called the "ether"
existed in the vacuum of space's void. It was needed in their theory
for the propagation of light waves. It's an untestable hypothesis at
the time. But eventually it was found to be undetectable even with
very sensitive measurements. Some could have appealed to God for help,
but others chose to refine the theory so that an ether was not
required. Nevertheless, there are still some questions that cannot be
answered. It does not mean that there is no God to answer. To some,
there is ample communication. It's a subjective thing.


I don't think the ether has been completely dispelled,
though I may be almost alone in that view. Einstein's
ideas showed that when we talk of velocity, that
velocity can only be expressed in relation to something
that has a different velocity, so Einstein succeeded in
dispelling the "ether" in terms of velocity. But what
about "acceleration"? Acceleration has real effects
that are not just artifacts of the perspective of
"something else" unless one (very mysteriously) says
that the universe as a whole acts as the "something
else". So I don't think the "ether" has really been
dispelled, it's just been bumped up a derivative-of-
integration level.

One interesting thought-experiment that's been
proposed to illustrate the remaining problem is the
question "If the rest of the universe disappeared,
would the earth still be spinning?" If there were
no universe to compare the earth with, you'd have
to ask "Spinning with respect to what?" and you
wouldn't have a good answer without a universe
to refer to. But if the earth is not spinning, there
are real consequences. The earth bulges at the
equator because of its angular momentum, but
if there were no universe (acting as "ether") to
act as a referent, then there'd be no way to say
if it was spinning. The world would have to
adjust itself into a more spherical shape if only
gravitation, not angular momentum, were acting
on it. That would cause huge earthquakes and
tsunamis as the earth adjusted to the loss of
angular momentum.



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