Re: Unintelligent Design?

JC wrote:

"JC" <dontbother@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:bykri.356710$G_4.48181@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"chatnoir" <wolfbat359a@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:1185787483.396589.303350@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


I hate to see someone worry themselves sick because they think they know something about someone else when they don't, so let me just explain my religious belief for you.

I believe there was, and still is, a creator. Some call it Allah, some call it Mother Nature, some, including me, call it God. But whatever it is called, I believe that it had the intelligence to create the universe out of nothing and to do so in such an orderly manner that things EVOLVED into what they are today. I do not believe that the ability to think and reason came from some rock that resulted from a big explosion. I believe that it came as a result of an intelligent decision on the part of a creator to give certain of his/her creations dominance over others. I believe that this was done in order to create a self sustaining life. And I believe that this intelligent being laid down certain laws that it's creations must abide by or perish. And I believe this took place billions of years before the book of Genesis was ever dreamed up.


I am surprised. A cogent thought. And a logical one, based on understanding of the limitations of science. One never thought that you could actually issue such reasonable thought, devoid to some ad hominen attack.

Fine. And we understand that you need, as does any religion, need to take those beliefs on faith, as science is not competent( at least for the present time ) of responding to those inherent questions. More rational applications of current philosophy and knowledge. You're on a roll.

I am content in thinking, not that I believe, it possible that some philosopher of long again took the time to think about those laws and decided that it might be a good idea to put them down on paper in a form that might entice others to read and contemplate what they mean. And I think it entirely possible that, having read the first iteration of those laws and the story dreamed up to promote them, others decided to add to the story in hopes of enhancing it and compelling the population to follow those laws in the hopes of achieving a more congenial society.

Again, a belief based on faith, to which you are entitled.

I believe that this intelligence now holds sway over the things that we do in that it seems that doing good brings good and doing bad brings bad. And I believe that one can be good in their hearts while being bad in their person but it's what is in one's heart that seems to count. I believe that this intelligence allows bad things to happen to good people in order to give others a chance to redeem themselves by the manner in which they respond. I believe that every disaster, tragedy or other unfortunate occurance is pre-conceived to give others the chance to make up for some of the bad things they might have done. And who can prove that those unfortunate occurances are NOT punishments for some bad things some have done?

There's where you get into trouble. Science CAN request evidence for those actions which take place in the physical world today. And in order to support your conjecture, you'd need to produce evidence. Since events in the world today are testable, then without evidence, they lack standing and are no more than any other crackpot idea. You would have done better by simply professing religion to be a series of morals which account for the actions of adherents. A far better and less challengeable way for you to come to exactly the same conclusion. Because anyone is within their rights to demand evidence from you that some 'intelligence exists which controls human behavior as you say. Lacking same, the only retort and retreat you have, is the defense of, "I said it, I believe it, and that's that.' when you take that position it loses any claim you may make to any intellectual argument and postures you as an ideologue who got backed into a corner in which he can't extricate himself. And then the ad hominem begin, because that's all that's left to assuage the dented ego.

I believe there is a rhyme and reason to this life. I don't know why nor do I care. All I know is that my belief causes me to live my life a certain way and I'm comfortable with that. I also believe, well not believe, I know, that many people will go through life believing there is no "God" or whatever but when it comes down to their last minutes on this earth, they all seem to want to hedge their bets by getting a little religion. I've seen it in prisons, where some of my family volunteers their medical expertise, I've seen it in Vietnam with close friends dying, I saw it very vividly, up close and personal, when an atheist neighbor of ours cried out to God to not let his daughter, lying dying in his arms after being hit by a car, die and saying he would do anything if God would let her live. He didn't.

Very passionate and emotionally moving, but not really relevant. The same scenario is played out time and time again with the righteous as well. With the same results.

So, I just kinda laugh all this anti-religion stuff off as ignorance. I don't care what people think about me, or my religion. I know where I stand with my creator and that's all that counts to me.

Fine. You have a right to believe in a creator. Such belief answers things that science cannot.

Now, if you can tell me how the ability to think and reason evolved from a rock that resulted from an explosion billions of years ago, I'd love to hear it. But anybody that goes out in the country by themselves, sits on a creekbank and watches a bumblebee fly from flower to flower, and watches that flower open up just before the bee lands and see how that bee gathers it's treasure and how that flower embraces the bee in order to stabilize it and thinks there is no intelligence at work is just not paying attention. And anybody that sees a hawk swoop down and grab a snake just far enough behind it's head to keep from getting bitten and not realize that there is intelligence at work here is just not paying attention. How do you have the knowledge to not mess with that snake when that bird had the knowledge of HOW to mess with that snake. A ROCK gave it to him?

Darwin has already told you how that ability evolved. Modern genetics has identified the mechanism of natural selection as mutation. Evolution does make any claims to abiogenesis, a material fact which I pointed out to you, and which you failed to respond to after being 'educated' about things you obviously had little understanding about. However, you still fail to make the understanding, and repeat the same error.

Evolution does not explain how life originated from non-living material; only how it changed over time, once it appeared, in whatever form it did. Abiogenesis speaks to how life arose. You need to understand the difference. Apparently you don't.

.

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