Re: Do you believe

Jerry Okamura wrote:
"George Z. Bush" <georgezbush@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:FaoXf.447$Nz4.76@xxxxxxxxxxx
Jerry Okamura wrote:
"George Z. Bush" <georgezbush@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:sc1Xf.92$E24.89@xxxxxxxxxxx
Jerry Okamura wrote:

There's a huge difference between people like that and
people like yourself and myself; saying that education is the key to
affluence is lost on people like them.


Well, yes, and as a result they suffer the consequences of the "choices"
they make....

And yet, we are as a people christians (and I used the small "c"
advisedly); most of us acknowledge that we are indeed our brothers'
keepers and those of us who are more fortunate have an obligation to
help
those who are less fortunate.

That it seems to me goes to the crux of the debate. Is it better to
feed
a
person, or teach a person to feed themselves.

Quite obviously, it's better to teach them to feed themselves.
Unfortunately, for numerous reasons, not all successfully pass the
course.
Don't we have a residual obligation within the context of being
practicing
christians to those who haven't learned (and perhaps are incapable of
learning) how to do that short of abandoning them?

Once again, I am not a practicing christian...

What of it? Does that preclude you from following some of their valuable
precepts?

.........And unless we can invent the
perfect human being, there will always be someone who falls through the
cracks. As for what is the best policy to follow, it seems to me that is
another one of those great unanswered questions.

If, as you say, the question is unanswered, why should what you have to say
on the subject be of any interest to anyone.....by your own definition, it
doesn't provide any answers.

........If you give someone a handout with no strings attached, it would
seem to me, they have little incentive to change their ways (other than
what may personally motivate
them). So, I guess my answer is, some tough love has to take place from
time to time.... As for those who are truly incable of learning because
of
some serious mental defect, I personally think they should get all the
help
they can get, because no amount of effort is going to make them able to
take
care of themselves. But that does not seem to me where our policy makers
put all their effort in.


(Snip)

And when you punish them for failing to become as self-reliant as you
would have them be, you also punish their innocent children and cause
them
permanent damage in the process. What did they ever do to earn your
scorn
and abandonment other than being born into this world by the same process
that brought you and me here?

Only if they have children.

Have I missed something? Did I not mention "innocent children"?

.........Besides, this is also one of those misleading
arguemnts. The children who seem to pay the highest price are the
children
who are brought into this world by other children.

It doesn't matter what you call them.....they are parents of innocent
children.

.........These other children,
who bring someone into this world, is most likely not going to be able to
provide the financial or emotional support that children need. It does
not
help when the father of that child, basically gets off scot free, paying
little or no price for the results of their actions (it just sends the
wrong
message it seems to me).

So, he's a child who fathered another child....what do you want to do with
him, beat him with a stick? And aren't you dragging us off into yet another
tangent here?

.........As for "scorn", when you and I were brought into
this world, the odds were that both our mothers and fathers would make
whatever sacrifices they needed to make to see that we were
successful....to
the best of their ability....can you say the same about the current
generation of parents?

I don't know and wouldn't hazard an opinion on that. You obviously believe
you're competent to speak for the current generation of parents and far be
it for me to even try to dissuade you from it.

(Snip)

I simply asked for you to support your statement. Which you have chosen
to
ignore....

Au contraire.....you simply have gotten lost in the tortured maize you've
created of the discussion and have misplaced the question. AIR, I said that
the answer to your question didn't matter, unless you denied the existence
of that aspect of the problem, in which case we had nothing further to
discuss. There was nothing for me to support, because I had made no claim
that might require it.

It deserves being ignored.


.......As for societies obligation, which I presume you mean you
and I, I have no problems giving people a "helping" hand for the
mistakes
they made. I am just not willing to give them a bottomless pit of help,
especially for those who do not take advantage of the help that is given
them.

Once again, you've resumed quibbling about the unimportant. When did
"bottomless pit" become part of the equation? Isn't the problem as it
exists big enough to suit you?

No. Because the "problem" will always exist. It is how best to address
the
"problem" that is important, and what policies give us the most bang for
the
buck....

Now we've finally reached the nub of what's important to you.....what's it
going to cost you?
And, to answer my own question, it'll cost whatever it takes to take care of
the problem. There is no dollar limit if you expect to live in an ordered
society. If you don't want to pay the tab, those who need it and don't have
it are going to take it from you one way or another, and you probably won't
approve of their methods, either. And I have a further bit of news for
you......they won't care one way or another whether or not they have your
approval.

George Z
George Z


.

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