Re: Preaching or Teaching?

js wrote:

Alan Lichtenstein wrote:

js wrote:


Rita wrote:


On 15 Mar 2006 07:02:22 -0800, "js" <jonathansmith99@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:



Alan Lichtenstein wrote:


Glenn wrote:

Such a sorry attack demands that I defend Jay. The purpose of education
is first to defend democracy, second to provide the equality promised by
the Declaration of Independence, third to protect all citizens from the
demigods, confidence men, politicians, and other who make their way by
the lie, fourth to provide the training needed for the future.

Wrong, as usual, Pooler. The purpose of education, at least in our
democratic society, is the produce critically thinking individuals who
can evaluate for themselves each issue and thus THEY, not the system are
what defends democracy.

Bull roar - the purpose of education is to provide students the skills
necessary to earn a living. Schools have no reason to be involved in
anything else. Period.

js

Hmmm. Just readin' and writing' and rithmetic?


If only they COULD accomplish this reasonably well we would all be
better off.

NAEP scores demonstrate that these benchmarks are increasing.


The comparisons with other countries points out that this is not
enough. WEant to argue educatiuonal achievement globally?

What comparisons are those, genius? TIMSS? TIMSS has been qualified for its results. NO other country in the TIMSS results had a pool of students as diverse as the U.S. In short, TIMSS results from other countries used only their upper level students, while the U.S. used all. When the results were statistically floored, the U.S. came out near the top. You see, you need to know what you're talking about.

Now, let's get back to your initial assertion. You asserted that if our schools could only accomplish this well, has clearly been refuted. In point of fact, there is NO valid comparison with heterogeneous groups with other countries, simply because other countries( save a few ) to NOT have universal education for the length of time we do in the U.S. You see, you've got to standardize your sample so that you're comparing apples to apples, and not to oranges.

Now, go back and put that in your pipe and smoke up your prejudices some more. If you want to say that U.S. education, given our parameters, which I have just explained to you does not meet with your satisfaction, why that's another issue. But based on what you said, you're just plain wrong.

Forget literature,


That would ber the reading part, Rita.

No, it would not.


Before you can play in the literature, you need to be able to READ!

Those skills are usually achieved in grammar school. NAEP scores appear to indicate that. Are you advocating a cessation of education beyond grade 8?

Literature includes a study of the culture, form and
context, as well as figurative vs. literal meaning, to mention just a
few.


All require you to READ and this is a skill that many high school
graduaqtes accomplish at the most basic of levels.

Again, those skills have developed sufficiently at grade 8.

Here's an example of what I mean.

http://www.privacyrights.org/ar/GLB-Reading.htm

To manage in the real world you need to read at much higher levels than
what is achieved by many. I don't need quotes from Shakespear - I need
employees that can read an instruction manual and write a freakin memo!

Do you have any idea what that piece you cited means? Readability is something reading teachers and specialists have used for years. What readability tells us, is how to avoid language and syntax that is unnecessarily vague. Nothing more. People with adequate reading skills( most of the population ) should be able to read and understand a document. Readability merely tells writers of those manuals where THEY have fallen down on the job, as the piece you cited indicates.

You see, when you get a little knowledge about something that you really don't understand, it becomes more dangerous due to your overall ignorance.

You need to know more than just how to decode letters( reading) to
study and understand literature.


I want an employee to be able to fill out an employment application,
not recite poetry!

So you're hiring eighth grade graduates? They can do that. Now, if you want thinking, well-rounded individuals properly socialized with a broad range of knowledge and skills, you're going to need more than what you have cited above.


And taken in context with the goal of
acculturation of schooling, which Connie has pointed out, you have a
very strong component of education. Because educated people need to
have a broad as base in knowledge as possible to permit them to be
contributing members of society. Because society grows by culture as
well as by tangible products.


I want people to contribute to society first and foremost through
economic output. After you prove to me your graduates can, don't waste
their time. If you want literature, teach them to read the NEJM.

So you want indoctrinated, trained robots? Read Ravitch, "Left Back-A Century of Failed Educational Reforms" to understand the distinction between training and education. You want trained individuals, not educated ones. And see what she has to say about the value of training vs. education. And while you do read it, keep in mind that Ravitch is perhaps more reactionary than you.

other languages,


That is both reading and writing. But lets all get English down first.

We get this down by grade 8. Are you suggesting that we only need to
school children to grade 8?


Obviously you managed.

Ad did you. Now answer the question. I note you avoid it. Wonder why?

history, political science, in fact, forget all the
sciences.


Sorry - but that isn't what I said, now is it.

It is indeed, if you aren't going to use any of those to make a living.


Pfft.


Another typical stupid response.

Make our schools trade schools?


Exactly the opposite, Rita.

You could have fooled me too. And you should know that Rita has thrown
a hissey-fit at something I said, so she's not speaking to me. But I
happen to agree with her here.


Well goody goody for you and Rita.


But perhaps I have misunderstood you. So please give a list of
what students need to be taught in order to gain the skills to
earn a living?


Let's start with the basics, shall we? READ, WRITE, and mathematics.
Once you have those three skills, then lets take on the physical
sciences.

Of I see. You have no place for science and mathematics in the early
grades? I'm just waiting to tear you to shreds on this one.


Damned right. If you can't read, write, or do simple math, scientific
concepts are not comprehensible.

Oh, so you Do have a place for those skills in the early grades. You should choose your assertions more carefully. Now, tell us EXACTLY what you would teach them in those areas in the early grades.

Example - freezing as a scientifc concept is impossible to understand
in the absence of an understanding of counting and order.

Not true. There are a number of qualitative experiments which illustrate those concepts quite well. You see, genius, educators, in particular, science educators have spent a great deal of time attempting to understand how the ability to comprehend abstraction grows with increasing maturity, and have tailored programs to address that developmental growth, revisiting concepts as necessary. Why don't you just quit while you're behind? You don't have any basis to refute anything I say, because you simply have only your prejudices and misconceptions to go up against my nearly 40 years in this field.

In my high school the kids who were hell bent on making a living
as soon as possible opted for certain no frills courses such as
business math or shop. Those who knew some day they would
have to make a living but were unsure what they wanted to do
opted for college prep curriculums. Guess who came out better
over the long haul. I don't consider my three years in Latin
class wasted.


I never said that they were. But if you look in the California
Curriculum for high schools, Latin is not on the list of required
courses.

Those standards, as are the standards of ANY state are floor or minimal
standards. I should hope that you are not advocating educating our
children to the minimum.


I think that would be a step upward in most cases.

Then you are even more ignorant than I thought. Students have to meet whatever minimum standards are in force in order to graduate. You decry minimum standards, then contradict yourself by saying they're a step up.

I see no conflict in advanced course work for advanced students. Only
25% go on to get a college degree so college prep is NOT a core focus -
skills are.

Where are you getting your statistic from? I disagree.


Census Bureau - Table 1A - college graduate or higher - US populatuion
over age 25 - 27.7% Want to quibble about the 2.7%? Well the CPS from
the Census 2000 puts it at just a hair over 25%. Close enough for
government work.

Fine. You won one.

What's even worse is that not only do we spend more, it apear to be
getting less and less:

Wrong. this article does NOT take into consideration any of the standard indicators.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/24/AR2005122400701.html


What was once called a "liberal education" prepared students
to think for themselves and to evaluate ideas although certainly
not training them in specific job related skills.


Who said anything about specific skills? I said - SKILLS necessary to
earn a living - not to be a plumber or an electrician or a brain
surgeon. Skills that ALL jobs require.

Well, perhaps you should delineate those'skills' to avoid any further
confusion.


What is it about reading, writing, and basic math skills (like making
change, figuring price per unit, calculating distance and averages,
interpreting simple statistics and proportions, working with
fractions...)
Those are taught.

I don't need a high school diploma to include Chaucer or abortion
rights, but I do need it to include simple division.

It does.

Has this ever happened to you? The bill is $95.29 and you hand the
clerk a $100 bill, she (he) punches it into the computer, comes up with
$4.71 and you hand her (him) a quarter and four pennies? Now you
understand.

Oh, please. Those are techniques retail clerks learn. Has nothing to do with basic skills.

That's what schools need to focus on - skills that are necessary to be
successful - not the ability to answer Jeopardy questions.

I see. We should focus on the tricks that check-out clerks at the register use. How educationally sound. You are indeed a foolish person. You clearly don't have any understanding about what education in our society is all about. But you think you do, and that's the sorry point.

I liked Glenn's obsservation - you are part of the problem.

Of course you did. One fool agreeing with another. does it strike you as odd that you are the only two having that position in all these threads? Why do you suppose that's so? ( HINT: It's not because either of you understand anything about the nature and purpose of education ).

.

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