Re: Time to cut our dependence on and therefore our interest in the...

Jerry Okamura wrote:

"Alan Lichtenstein" <arl@xxxxxxx> wrote in message news:g_OdnabcgsCNvpreRVn-ig@xxxxxxxxxx

Jerry Okamura wrote:


 We waste all kinds of resources.

So, that's an excuse for continued stupidity?


No, just a statement of fact. We humans do a whole lot of stupid things, at least from the view of someone else who thinks they are doing something stupid.


 Some of them, like oil obvously have

some limits in supply. So, are you suggesting that we should not allow anyone to waste any resource to the potential detriment of all?

Yes. Our society, and I mean our GLOBAL society and technology runs on oil. And we have no substitute to support that technology in sight. Unless you are prepared to see the downfall of our technology, and consequently, our society, then we must take steps NOW, while there is still sufficient amounts of the resource to extend its use until we can come up with that alternative.


It also survives on food. As for a substitute, if we have no substitute for oil, then I would suggest the human race is in serious trouble, and it won't matter if you try to "conserve" as much of our oil as possible, because no matter what you do, the simple fact is that oil will be used, and it is only a matter of time when that resource will be all used up. And no, I do not think we need to take any drastic measures ot find a substitute for oil, the economic law of supply and demand will do it automatically for us.

I suggest that you read Paul's reply elsewhere in this thread which should explain to you why that is untenable. If you missed it, I can repost it for you, however, he has already made the case. Ignoring the impending doom and your lack of knowledge as to the potential time requirement to develop this technology lead you to a complacency that is unwarranted.

 Besides, as

I have argued many times before, this is all a phony argument as far as I am concerned.

then you are putting your head in the sand. Just like the people who fail to plan for retirement, because the date is so far in advance, and who wind up never planning for it, but when the day arrives, find themselves in dire straits. THIS is what you advocate.

 If the demand for oil exceeds the supply of oil, then the price

of oil will start to rise. 

Been reading the papers lately?

 At some point, people will first decide that

they do not want to spend their money on gasoline, and will start to make other choices for their transporation needs.

This has been discussed at length, and if you followed the thread between myself, Dr. Reactionary Bob, and Alvin Toda, you will see that the inadequacies of public transportation were made clear. Simply put, public transportation cannot support the lifestyle we have chosen for ourselves and is impractical to do so. In fact, it is one of a very FEW things that Dr. Reactionary Bob and I have agreed on.


I was not talking about public transportation, I was talking about cars.

Then kindly tell us what mode of transportation you suggest that will replace personal transportation vehicles, aka cars ?

The only reason we still use cars that consume gasoline is because when we make the tradeoffs, gasoline powered cars are still more cost effective than any other energy system used in cars. But at some point, if the supply of oil cannot meet demand, then the price of gasoline will have to rise. At some point in that price rise, we will automatically make that economic choice and make the necessary sacrifices to use an alternative to a gasoline powered car, or we will go back to the horse and buggy days. I might also add, that the auto manufacturers will stop producing as many gasoline powered cars (simply because they won't have enough takers) and sell some alternative to that, that will sell.

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, do you not understand that we do not simply say poof, we will now use another source of fuel? It takes YEARS to develop that, and will likely take scores of DECADES to develop one for personal transportation vehicles to replace the internal combustion engine. And decades, we don't have. Unless you are advocating allowing the price to rise so far that average people cannot afford it.

Fact remains, our society and lifestyles have been built around the personal transportation vehicle and unless we are going to make wholesale changes in those lifestyles, which I assert are highly undesirable, your solution is impractical. It is shortsighted to simply think of the issue a making choices in transportation. It isn't.

 And since some are arguing

that we will run out of oil, then unless there is an alternative, the whole economy collapses. But before that happens, the price of the stuff will continue to rise, and more and more alternatives to using oil will take its place.

Jerry, as yet we have NO, repeat, NO alternative to the use of fossil fuels as a fuel for personal transportation vehicles, and for the generation of electricity to the degree that we require that.


The alternative will come when there is a need, not before.

(sigh). You really have no concept of the time lag between research and development, do you?

I remember as a
young kid in Tokyo after the Second World War. The citizens of Japan had no gasoline. Did transportation come to a complete stop? No it did not. The people simply converted their internal combustion engines to run by burning wood (don't ask me how that works, since I do not know....but that was a pretty common sight, until they were able to use gasoline again).

Stanley Steamers were in use in this country and discarded as inefficient. What you describe is a return to that for the short term. We are not talking about emergency measures for the short term. We are talking about a long range solution. Please try to understand that.

For that matter, if there were not people who are


willing to buy that oil, then there would not be people who produce and sell the oil. As for the SUV argument, that also seems to me to apply to a whole bunch of things we use. For example, since all of us are retired on this newsgroup, do we all really need to have spent our earths valuable resources, using the very computer we are now using? Think about what raw materials that were used in the construction of this "toy"? How about the electericity that is consumed while we are using this "toy"? And this toy only lasts a couple of years before it is replaced, either because it does not work well anymore, or because we want something that is a little faster....wasting valuable resources perhaps? You should come to my house and take a look in my garage....quite an accumulation of old computers, displays and other computer stuff that no longer works. Do you travel? How much "limited" resources does that require? If no one travelled for pleasure, how much resources would we save?

Your example is ill placed because there is not the waste of finite resources. An SUV uses far more gasoline than standard vehicles, and if the owner has no use for the characteristics of the vehicle which require that use, then the owner is a wasteful inconsiderate.


All resources that are no renewable are finite resources, and we use an awful lot of finite resources besides oil.

Not so. many are renewable as we are discovering. And while some resources are also finite, the only one of present concern is oil.

No more so, then you and I using the very computer we are communicating right now on. 

(sigh) You really don't understand, do you?


What don't I understand? 

(sigh )

			Alan

.

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