Re: Time to cut our dependence on and therefore our interest in the...


"Alan Lichtenstein" <arl@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:g_OdnabcgsCNvpreRVn-ig@xxxxxxxxxx
> Jerry Okamura wrote:
>
>
> We waste all kinds of resources.
>
> So, that's an excuse for continued stupidity?

No, just a statement of fact. We humans do a whole lot of stupid things, at
least from the view of someone else who thinks they are doing something
stupid.

>
> Some of them, like oil obvously have
>> some limits in supply. So, are you suggesting that we should not allow
>> anyone to waste any resource to the potential detriment of all?
>
> Yes. Our society, and I mean our GLOBAL society and technology runs on
> oil. And we have no substitute to support that technology in sight.
> Unless you are prepared to see the downfall of our technology, and
> consequently, our society, then we must take steps NOW, while there is
> still sufficient amounts of the resource to extend its use until we can
> come up with that alternative.

It also survives on food. As for a substitute, if we have no substitute for
oil, then I would suggest the human race is in serious trouble, and it won't
matter if you try to "conserve" as much of our oil as possible, because no
matter what you do, the simple fact is that oil will be used, and it is only
a matter of time when that resource will be all used up. And no, I do not
think we need to take any drastic measures ot find a substitute for oil, the
economic law of supply and demand will do it automatically for us.
>
> Besides, as
>> I have argued many times before, this is all a phony argument as far as I
>> am concerned.
>
> then you are putting your head in the sand. Just like the people who fail
> to plan for retirement, because the date is so far in advance, and who
> wind up never planning for it, but when the day arrives, find themselves
> in dire straits. THIS is what you advocate.
>
> If the demand for oil exceeds the supply of oil, then the price
>> of oil will start to rise.
>
> Been reading the papers lately?
>
> At some point, people will first decide that
>> they do not want to spend their money on gasoline, and will start to make
>> other choices for their transporation needs.
>
> This has been discussed at length, and if you followed the thread between
> myself, Dr. Reactionary Bob, and Alvin Toda, you will see that the
> inadequacies of public transportation were made clear. Simply put, public
> transportation cannot support the lifestyle we have chosen for ourselves
> and is impractical to do so. In fact, it is one of a very FEW things that
> Dr. Reactionary Bob and I have agreed on.

I was not talking about public transportation, I was talking about cars.
The only reason we still use cars that consume gasoline is because when we
make the tradeoffs, gasoline powered cars are still more cost effective than
any other energy system used in cars. But at some point, if the supply of
oil cannot meet demand, then the price of gasoline will have to rise. At
some point in that price rise, we will automatically make that economic
choice and make the necessary sacrifices to use an alternative to a gasoline
powered car, or we will go back to the horse and buggy days. I might also
add, that the auto manufacturers will stop producing as many gasoline
powered cars (simply because they won't have enough takers) and sell some
alternative to that, that will sell.
>
> Fact remains, our society and lifestyles have been built around the
> personal transportation vehicle and unless we are going to make wholesale
> changes in those lifestyles, which I assert are highly undesirable, your
> solution is impractical. It is shortsighted to simply think of the issue
> a making choices in transportation. It isn't.
>
> And since some are arguing
>> that we will run out of oil, then unless there is an alternative, the
>> whole economy collapses. But before that happens, the price of the stuff
>> will continue to rise, and more and more alternatives to using oil will
>> take its place.
>
> Jerry, as yet we have NO, repeat, NO alternative to the use of fossil
> fuels as a fuel for personal transportation vehicles, and for the
> generation of electricity to the degree that we require that.

The alternative will come when there is a need, not before. I remember as a
young kid in Tokyo after the Second World War. The citizens of Japan had no
gasoline. Did transportation come to a complete stop? No it did not. The
people simply converted their internal combustion engines to run by burning
wood (don't ask me how that works, since I do not know....but that was a
pretty common sight, until they were able to use gasoline again).
>
>>> For that matter, if there were not people who are
>>>
>>>>willing to buy that oil, then there would not be people who produce and
>>>>sell the oil. As for the SUV argument, that also seems to me to apply
>>>>to a whole bunch of things we use. For example, since all of us are
>>>>retired on this newsgroup, do we all really need to have spent our
>>>>earths valuable resources, using the very computer we are now using?
>>>>Think about what raw materials that were used in the construction of
>>>>this "toy"? How about the electericity that is consumed while we are
>>>>using this "toy"? And this toy only lasts a couple of years before it
>>>>is replaced, either because it does not work well anymore, or because we
>>>>want something that is a little faster....wasting valuable resources
>>>>perhaps? You should come to my house and take a look in my
>>>>garage....quite an accumulation of old computers, displays and other
>>>>computer stuff that no longer works. Do you travel? How much "limited"
>>>>resources does that require? If no one travelled for pleasure, how much
>>>>resources would we save?
>>>
>>>Your example is ill placed because there is not the waste of finite
>>>resources. An SUV uses far more gasoline than standard vehicles, and if
>>>the owner has no use for the characteristics of the vehicle which require
>>>that use, then the owner is a wasteful inconsiderate.

All resources that are no renewable are finite resources, and we use an
awful lot of finite resources besides oil.
>>>
>>
>> No more so, then you and I using the very computer we are communicating
>> right now on.
>
> (sigh) You really don't understand, do you?
>
What don't I understand?


.

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