Re: Time to cut our dependence on and therefore our interest in the...

Jerry Okamura wrote:

"Alan Lichtenstein" <arl@xxxxxxx> wrote in message news:Lv-dnXWDJq6KoZveRVn-tw@xxxxxxxxxx

Jerry Okamura wrote:



Nice sentiments, but just about impossible to achieve it seems to me, i.e. pursuing our freedom which does not impinge on someone else's pursuit of their freedom.

Hardly, Jerry. We have laws which restrict unabashed exercise of freedom due to the assertion. Have you not heard of laws preventing assault, robbery, harassment, etc., all of which prevent one from exercising his personal freedom to the detriment of others. And in that vein, let us not forget the recent Patriot Act. Obviously, you have heard the clichÈ that your right to exercise your freedom ends at my nose. 


isn't that what I just said?


Now what do you think that means?

And have you not heard of rationing, so prevalent in WWII? If the wealthy want to purchase their SUV's because it is their freedom to do so, why let them. They just won't be able to fill up their tank whenever they want, because the common good will have oil available for all.


That sort of depends on what you define as weathly it seems to me. I see a whole lot of people, who I would not consider as wealthy driving around in not only SUV's but pickup trucks (and some of those are monsters), and I would be willing the bet not all of them are wealthy. 

Fine.  I accept your correction.

 As for who we "allow" to utilize a limited resource such as

oil, it seems to me that includes all of us who use that oil, not only those who sell that oil.

Exactly, Jerry. Do you think that some should be allowed to waste that resource to the detriment of all simply because they can, crying freedom of choice?


yes.

Then we have no basis for further discussion. I find your response ridiculous and hedonistic and out of touch with the needs of humanity. Wasting finite resources is a crime and should be treated as such.

  We waste all kinds of resources.

So, that's an excuse for continued stupidity?

Some of them, like oil obvously have
some limits in supply. So, are you suggesting that we should not allow anyone to waste any resource to the potential detriment of all?

Yes. Our society, and I mean our GLOBAL society and technology runs on oil. And we have no substitute to support that technology in sight. Unless you are prepared to see the downfall of our technology, and consequently, our society, then we must take steps NOW, while there is still sufficient amounts of the resource to extend its use until we can come up with that alternative.

Besides, as
I have argued many times before, this is all a phony argument as far as I am concerned.

then you are putting your head in the sand. Just like the people who fail to plan for retirement, because the date is so far in advance, and who wind up never planning for it, but when the day arrives, find themselves in dire straits. THIS is what you advocate.

If the demand for oil exceeds the supply of oil, then the price
of oil will start to rise. 

Been reading the papers lately?

At some point, people will first decide that
they do not want to spend their money on gasoline, and will start to make other choices for their transporation needs.

This has been discussed at length, and if you followed the thread between myself, Dr. Reactionary Bob, and Alvin Toda, you will see that the inadequacies of public transportation were made clear. Simply put, public transportation cannot support the lifestyle we have chosen for ourselves and is impractical to do so. In fact, it is one of a very FEW things that Dr. Reactionary Bob and I have agreed on.

Fact remains, our society and lifestyles have been built around the personal transportation vehicle and unless we are going to make wholesale changes in those lifestyles, which I assert are highly undesirable, your solution is impractical. It is shortsighted to simply think of the issue a making choices in transportation. It isn't.

And since some are arguing
that we will run out of oil, then unless there is an alternative, the whole economy collapses. But before that happens, the price of the stuff will continue to rise, and more and more alternatives to using oil will take its place.

Jerry, as yet we have NO, repeat, NO alternative to the use of fossil fuels as a fuel for personal transportation vehicles, and for the generation of electricity to the degree that we require that.

 For that matter, if there were not people who are

willing to buy that oil, then there would not be people who produce and sell the oil. As for the SUV argument, that also seems to me to apply to a whole bunch of things we use. For example, since all of us are retired on this newsgroup, do we all really need to have spent our earths valuable resources, using the very computer we are now using? Think about what raw materials that were used in the construction of this "toy"? How about the electericity that is consumed while we are using this "toy"? And this toy only lasts a couple of years before it is replaced, either because it does not work well anymore, or because we want something that is a little faster....wasting valuable resources perhaps? You should come to my house and take a look in my garage....quite an accumulation of old computers, displays and other computer stuff that no longer works. Do you travel? How much "limited" resources does that require? If no one travelled for pleasure, how much resources would we save?

Your example is ill placed because there is not the waste of finite resources. An SUV uses far more gasoline than standard vehicles, and if the owner has no use for the characteristics of the vehicle which require that use, then the owner is a wasteful inconsiderate.


No more so, then you and I using the very computer we are communicating right now on. 

(sigh) You really don't understand, do you?

			Alan

.

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  • Re: Time to cut our dependence on and therefore our interest in the...
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  • Re: Time to cut our dependence on and therefore our interest in the...
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