Re: Pure Reason [was something else]

Timothy Travis wrote:
On 7/14/08 4:26 PM, in article 6e25l9F50uhsU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
"Yowie" <yowie9644.DIESPAMDIE@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Nor can I see how including empathy, common sense, compassion makes
the process unreasoned or illogical, in fact, I think it makes a
great 'crosscheck', so to speak. If the conclusion of a logical,
rational process is not also compassionate and consistant with
'common sense' then it would strike me that either a) the underlying
assumptions were incorrect/incomplete or b) somewhere the logical
process went wrong. I would *not* conclude that the rational and
logical approach itself was wrong and should be replaced by
'feelings' or other sort of subjective touchy-feely irrational
system.

Nicely said. Human reasoning is to be supplemented by the Spirit
when it leads to something that contradicts the Spirit. Human
reason, unleavened by it, is susceptible to error--it will not always
err, but it can and does.

I don't think human reason needs so much to be 'suplemented' but rather to
*include* the Holy Spirit (or conscience or 'common sense')


I have said, and have many times been reminded that I did, the same
thing.

Now, the big question is... how do we know that it is the Holy Spirit
guiding us and not some other spirit? I would suggest that reasoning &
rational thought is the perfect check.

Same other way around, you know. If one has a "leading" from the
Spirit to kill a lot of people (and people have had such leadings)
then it seems likely to me at first blush, that the voice which one
is hearing is not the Spirit or that the leading is not be
understood, clearly.

Both "pure reason"--which I understand from the discussion is
infallible

Only infallible if one has all the information necessary, one starts with
all the axioms necessary (and all axioms are correct) and one follows the
process precisely.

Most human beings, not being Omniscient, work on a lesser set of information
and axioms. Human beings are also flawed.

and the accumulated wisdom of spiritual leadings among
Friends (compassion, empathy, etc) should be used to augment this
understanding of the leading, as they should be used when people
"reason" their way to concluding that large numbers of people should
be killed.

I would suggest that unless bothSpirit and Reasoning are in agreement,
something is wrong somewhere. The hard part is figuring out what the 'wrong'
bit is :-)

Thus, whether what is put into play is called the product of pure
reason or the leading of the Spirit, no body gets killed.

Well, thats the idea, anyway :-).

The trouble I have with using the Holy Spirit as a cross check is that we as
human beings seem so easily decieved in that regard, and hte HOly Spirit
seems variable depending on the individual. Two people, genuine and faithful
Christians can have leadings that are polar opposites (eg one votes
conservative and one votes liberal) and both claim that it was the Holy
Spirit that lead them to do that. They speak sincerely. Both are convinced
that God approves of their side of politics and hte other side is of the
adversary. Both speak with utter sincerity and can justify their respective
decisions with quotes from the Bible.

Either:

1 was right, 1 was wrong about the Holy Spirit's leadings
Both were right, the Holy Spirit leads individuals, it is not necessarily
consistant between people
Both were wrong, the leading they felt was not hte Holy Spirit.

The advantage of critical thinking is that its a known procedure. A
'conclusion' can be deconstructed such that often,t he starting assumptions
can be discovered and the differences in conclusions between different
people can be traced back to their different starting positions. It does not
need a highly subjective "Spirit" to work.

Yowie

Yowie


.

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