Re: Lying is wrong, deception not always wrong

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 06:40:01 -0600, JEB <enon@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[posted and mailed]

"S McFarlane" <nothanks@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:47-dnWOO-IbBOm_eRVn-hg@xxxxxxxxxxx:



Perhaps my personal reaction to any statements along these lines - be
it Jeff, Tim

othy

Jerry Falwell, or myself - is that it seems the speaker
is presuming to speak for God.

Good point.

no it isn't.

I don't see how it can seem that way in my case.

I have never claimed (notwithstanding claims the contrary) to speak
for anyone except myself, and, when so labeled, for traditional
Friends beliefs, to speak of my own understanding of the Divine.

I have said this so many times...and I will continue to say it every
time some says that I do so claim.

As I understand it, you're stating that the less-than-humble
judgmental attitude behind such words is very troubling even if the social
consequences are not. The ripples of that attitude probably do eventually
cause harm by spawning and supporting the attitude in others that actually
will be harmful.

Better be careful with this or some people will claim that you are
linking them with death camps and terrorists.

It's a point sort of well taken, as I have acknowledged, but not
entirely.

There is such a thing as heresy--vis a vis certain beliefs. And there
is such a thing as apostasy--again, relative to an orthodoxy. And
there is such a thing as blasphemy in regard to a certain concept of
the Divine.

When you take those words away you take away their meaning and their
useful in designating "is" and "is not." And when you take away there
meaning then every belief is the same. If not the same then of the
same rank order. Human sacrifice becomes as acceptable as entreating
people to stop human sacrifice. This is, in my view, a major
misunderstanding common in , at least in liberal Friends circles. The
Society of Friends is not about making up one's religion that everyone
is then obligated to honor and respect.

There is such a thing as "Truth."

The issue is what one does about that.

It concerns me anytime someone says 'you / they will burn in Hell' -
be it my next door neighbor or the Vicar of Christ. Not because I
entertain the idea that the speaker is in any position to make such
judgements on God's behalf, but rather because the speaker is inclined
to try.

Interesting take on this - nicely stated.

Interesting, perhaps, but it's a less than humble and judgmental
attitude that says that anyone who claims that someone else is outside
the bounds of some faith, in some way, will attempt to harm them.
History of the Society of Friends and some other spiritual tradition
disproves this notion. It is entirely possible to say that people are
in apostasy, that they are heretical, that they blaspheme and not try
to hurt them in any way--and to make clear what the proper response is
to the condition these words describe and to make that proper response
a central part of the faith and practice because it is in emulation of
Christ and the following of Christ's teachings, both written and
received directly.

My fear is that those who feel uncomfortable with certain expressions
of religious speech will be inclined to try to silence it. And that
avoiding the "discomfort" of using these words negates the existence
of Truth.

It's fine with me if you want to negate the existence of Truth, but I
will speak against that and entreat you to seek the religious
experience, the practice, that will show it to you.

Timothy Travis
Bridge City Friends Meeting
Portland, Oregon


"I was never an enemy to the King, nor to any man's person upon the
earth. I am in the love that fulfills the law which thinks no evil
but loves even enemies, and would have the King saved, and come to
knowledge of the truth, and be brought into the fear of the Lord, to
receive his wisdom from above, by which all things are made and
created, that with that wisdom he may order all things to the glory of
God."

George Fox
Journal p. 349


"But Christ and his disciples never persecuted or
imprisoned any."

"I asked them... if they would willingly be so served
themselves; and whether they who looked upon the
scriptures to be their rule, had any example in
scripture from Christ or his apostles, for what
they had done."

George Fox
Journal
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Truth Seeker
    ... However to judge the veracity of your truth, can I ask a few questions. ... His main comment was that Islam has a lot of followers, ... just based on the hypocrisy of followers in any religion. ... Jewish friends. ...
    (rec.knives)
  • Re: Truth Seeker
    ... No one is compelled to accept the truth, but it is certainly a shame ... There were a few other discussions about other matters, but these were just based on the hypocrisy of followers in any religion. ... given the freedom to choose. ... My knowledge of this is from asking candid questions to my Islamic and Jewish friends. ...
    (rec.knives)
  • Re: He is risen
    ... Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once ... And the same is true of religion. ... A lot of my friends are religious. ...
    (rec.arts.drwho)
  • Pure Reason -- slouching slowly toward "Plonk"
    ... It's not what I say you're not facing up to, Engineer. ... flesh and not spirit. ... get all offended and thus avoid the truth you felt in what I ... practice of Friends, about all that stuff you have so far just laughed off ...
    (soc.religion.quaker)
  • WENDEEN ELOIS DA TROOF!!
    ... EVERYTHING to do with the raids. ... There was a point in time where I thought Wendeen and I were friends, ... poker periodicals during the raids, and also employed by Mark and Tina ... I'm the devil, or whatever, but the truth will always prevail. ...
    (rec.gambling.poker)