Re: Lying is wrong, deception not always wrong

On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 19:48:47 GMT, "1st Century Apostolic
Traditionalist" <nospamatall@xxxxxxx> wrote:


Anyone who infers that the Apostle Paul, especially called and
commissioned
by Christ and Almighty God, was a misled, cultural misogynist, is a LIAR.


A good thing, I suppose, then that I just said it right out and didn't
infer it. ;=]

You certainly talked yourself into that one, thus you admit yourself as
guilty.

Actually, I should have said I said it right out and didn't imply it.

I admit that I called him a misogynist. He was.

I am "guilty" of speaking the Truth.


Like all Friends I am not a respecter of fallible persons, in whose
number Paul was (as were all of the first century apostles you
worship). I am in unity with them when they are right and not when
they are wrong. In the case of women he was wrong.

No! he was, and is still, exactly right, it is you Timothy who are wrong, so
very wrong, and uttering such a profound wicked untruth is beneath contempt.

Not, apparently, so far beneath contempt that you refrain from
expressing a cubic cubit or two of it.

But you still haven't disproved what I said. True, you've struck a
pose and bombasted around--but you haven't explained away how Paul
(among other Biblical writers--and you) blame women for the entry of
sin and evil into the world.

And, actually, you proved it true of yourself in your long woman
blaming post of a couple of days ago. Anyone who reads that
understands perfectly well that I am right in this.

Paul was especially chosen and ordained by Almighty God and Christ himself
to teach the us, the Gentiles, and as "ALL SCRIPTURE" is God breathed or
inspired, you are in sinning greatly in proclaiming Paul a women hater.

I have no doubt that all scripture (and many written things that are
not in scripture, or even in the Christian tradition) is inspired by
God--it's just that quite a bit of it runs beyond the
light/inspiration of the writer and incorporates cultural notions into
what is actually opened. Inspiration does not make "right." It only
makes inspired.

And you are sinning greatly, in my view, and defending your illusions
about relatity, by denying the obvious truth of the matter about
Paul's limitations.

You are also sinning greatly by putting forward the notion that Paul,
apparently, could do not wrong--was as pefect as Jesus, himself.

I understand that admitting that Paul could be wrong about something
means that one has to wrestle with both the Bible and the living
Spirit to discern Truth. I know it's easier just to take the Bible as
it is written (even though you cannot really. To make sense of it you
must, as you admitted the other day, take the various pieces and try
to make them fit together. and then there is the fact that it's
written in several different ways). But Truth isn't that easy. Truth
comes hard. Jesus read all the scripture then available to him, from
boyhood upward, and still had to spend forty days in the wilderness to
discern the Truth. So do you. If you want Truth. No short cuts.

If you want forms, that's a different story, of course. There is
always a premium on and a great supply of whitewash available
everywhere from Home Depot to any local apostate church.


Gal. 1:1 "Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ,
and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; "

Paul's own words about himself! (Scholars do believe that Paul did,
indeed, actually write Galatians, unlike other letters of "his").
Paul's words and those of the people--no doubt men--who wrote New
Testament letters to which his name is attached are hardly
persuasive--unless one, of course, just believes everything they say.
(slavery, anyone?). Were those men also "not of men, neither by man"
(which you apparently take to mean incapable of being wrong, incapable
of writing beyond the measure of light they were granted) just because
they stuck his name on what they wrote?

The deception of publishing letters in his name that he didn't write
(and "polishing" the ones he did write), of course, is for the best of
reasons; keeping the aspostolic/apostate church a going concern that
conferred power on its leaders (who according to Acts were just too
darned valuable and important to waste their time feeding the needy or
actually doing any of the things that Jesus and the prophets said was
of prime concern). No, no, Paul and the leaders of the
apostolic/apostate church had to spend their valuable time praying and
meeting together and ironing out whether one could eat this or that or
whether one could really by a Christian and have a foreskin. That was
work that was important enough for them to do--all, of course, for the
benefit of the people this mighty apostolic/apostate church would
reach and "save."

I am snipping the rest of your proof texting, scriptures you have
neatly plucked from context and lined up like so many puffer billies,
all in a row. They prove nothing but, of course, you did not send
them sallying forth to prove anything. Their mission is more of your
deception (for the best of purposes, of course). Their mission is to
obscure, it's to distract people from the fact that you are, once
again, dodging truth because, in the words of another former Marine,
you can't handle the truth.

You've done a neat job of exerpting a tangential comment in my post
and making that the center of a tangential discussion instead of the
main point of that post.

Let me post that, again, in case you are interested in addressing,
with integrity, rather than your self rationalized deceit, the point
of this discussion:

you wrote:

With enough 'clever' words 'deceivers' and 'lawyers' can turn almost
everything upon it's head, this is why Christ detested them and rebuked them
so openly.

and I responded:

Again, absolutely.

When it is shown a number of times that someone has turned scripture
on its head through mis characterization, has spun it to mean things
it doesn't mean, snipped scripture out of context so that it means
exactly the opposite of what they say it means, added speculation to
scripture to justify their "simplicity"--when they have done all of
these things and are completely unrepentant and refuse to even
acknowledge what they do (perhaps they don't realize it and are their
ears and hearts are so closed they cannot hear when they are told and
shown what they are doing--over and over) then one should definitely
ignore what they say--or at least correct them as best one can, as
best they are able to endure it.

One should especially be wary of someone who says it's ok to deceive
others if your motives or purpose are good. For the fact is that many
people are willing to inflict great pain on others "for their own
good."

And the "lawyers" that Jesus rebuked were not "lawyers" as we know
them to day. And Jesus rebuked many from all walks of live who used
scripture to imprison others in false religion and in empty forms,
many who used scripture to mislead people and to keep them from a
truth they, themselves, did not grasp--even though they knew their
version of scripture "chapter and verse" and could come up with words
to justify whatever they did, whatever they wanted to do to others.
Idols have been built and maintained by people through time by people
who were very handy with a Bible.

Any comment on *this?*

I'd be glad to go on with the discussion about Paul's hatred of women,
and the apo- state condition of your so called apostolic church but,
hey, first things first.

Timothy Travis
Bridge City Friends Meeting
Portland, Oregon

Nothing is real to you until you experience it.
Everything else is just hearsay.

anon
.

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