Re: When is a Quaker a Quaker?

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 02:14:40 +0000, Engineer <invalid@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

>
>
>
>Timothy Travis wrote:
>
>>"Inheritance of acquired characteristics is a discredited theory."
>>"Inheritiance of acquired characteristics is a theory."
>>Without the modifier inheritance of acquired characteristics is still
>>a theory. The only meaning changed by removing the modifier is the
>>meaning that is added by the modifier. Inheritance of acquired
>>characteristics is no less a theory for removal of the modifier that
>>tells us more about the theory.
>
>You are arguning a universal rule for all modifiers from one particular
>example of a modifier, which is a reasonable argument until someone
>provides a counterexample of a modifier that changes the meaning.

No, I'm actually not.

I am pointing out that the meaning of the phrase "Quaker--unofficial
name of a member of the Religious Society of Friends" is understood by
pointing out the word you call the "modifier" *adds* information about
that which it modifies (in this case "name for a member of the
Religious Society of Friends"), but does not change the meaning of it.
You point out below that there are others grammatical situations in
which adding a "modifier" *changes* the meaning of the word that is
put in conjunction with the "modifier." (although as we analyze them,
below, we shall see that some of your examples actually fall in the
first category).

The existence of this second category does not do away with the
existence of the first as something quite distinct from it. I
understand that you argue that "unofficial name of a member of the
Religious Society of Friends" to fall into this second category but
the exercise in which I engaged in the first post--of removing the
modifier--makes the proper category clear.

Your argument would be well taken if what was written was "unofficial
member of the Religious Society of Friends," rather than "unofficial
name of a member of the Religious Society of Friends." But that's not
what's written.
>
>Quaker Guns
>(Well worth doing a web searcon:
>http://www.google.com/search?q=Quaker-Guns )

Quaker guns were not guns at all but logs set up to look line cannons
from a distance. Adding "Quaker" to "guns" creates a meaning
different than "guns" (in essence, "not guns") and removing it again
changes the meaning back. Of course, this example, like "silverware"
below, requires some gymnastics to get around because the "gun" isn't
really a "gun" but is a log. This is not really even an example of a
situation in which adding a "modifier" changes the meaning of the name
of a thing. It actually changes the name of the thing, itself.

>
>Rubber Bone.

"rubber" here is not really a modifier. it's a "partner" if we are
looking for a more accurate non technical description. it doesn't add
to the meaning of "bone" but changes it through forming a compound
noun.

And thus it's a good example of the category into which "unofficial
name of a member of the Religious Society of Friends" does *not* fall.
Adding "rubber" to "bone" changes the meaning of the word "bone" so
that, along with its "modifier" the word describes something different
than its meaning as it stands alone. A rubber bone is a dog toy or
perhaps a teaching tool, but it isn't a bone (although it may resemble
one) because it doesn't do what a bone does.

Take away "rubber" and the word goes back to conveying its actual
meaning. This is not the case with "unofficial name of a member of
the Religious Society of Friends." Like the "blue truck" example,
"name of a member of the Religious Society of Friends" means the same
thing that it would with "unofficial" in front of it.

>Voodoo Science

This one is in the same category as "unofficial name of a member of
the Religious Society of Friends." Although it's a derogatory phrase,
used to denigrate the legitimacy of the "science" ("a system or method
based or purporting to be based upon scientific principles" --
Webster's 7th) under discussion, removing "voodoo" does not change the
fact that trickle down economics (the most famous science ever
characterized as "voodoo") is a science. Adding the "voodoo" did not
make it mean something other than a system or method based or
purporting to be based upon scientific principles and taking the
"voodoo" away does not change it, either.

This is the same as "unofficial name of a member of the Religious
Society of Friends." "Name of a member of the Religious Society of
Friends" does not change its mean for the addition of "unofficial" in
front of it and restoring the "unofficial" likewise doesn't change it.
>
>Tofu Turkey.

same as rubber bone, above.

>
>Mandatory Elective.

In so far as this has any meaning at all, it's the same as rubber
bone.
>
>Plastic Silverware.

This one, which is in the same category as "unofficial name of a
member of the Religious Society of Friends," is more interesting
because most of what we encounter in our day to day life and call
silverware isn't really silverware, at all. It's flatware, just as
very little "gold braid" is actually made of gold.

Plastic silver/flatware is flatware. Putting "plastic" in front of
"silver/flatware" gives one more information about a particular "set"
of flatware. It doesn't, however, change the meaning to something
other than an eating utensil, any more than adding "unofficial" to
"name of a member of the Religious Society of Friends" changes the
meaning of that phrase to something other than someone who belongs to
the group designated.
>
>Synthetic Natural gas.

Again, like "rubber bone."

>
>Virtual Reality.

Again, like "rubber bone." Putting "virtual" in front of "reality"
makes it describe something that is not "reality" at all. That's not
what putting "unofficial" in front of "name of a member of the
Religious Society of Friends" does.

>
>Unofficial Definition.

I'm not sure what to do with this one.

This is one is more interesting because it can really confuse us,
especially in this discussion. It seems to be the same as "unofficial
name of a member of the Religious Society of Friends." "Unofficial"
does not change the meaning of the word "definition." But an
"unofficial" definition can be wrong (in a way that "unofficial name
of a member of the Religious Society of Friends" cannot be
wrong--although there are ways that an unofficial name of a member of
the Religious Society of Friends could be wrong. Sometimes Friends
are unofficially called "seekers" which is not correct) and so which
category it falls into seems to depend upon the accuracy of the
definition, itself.

If the definition that is "unofficial" is accurate then it would seem
to belong in the first category because whether "official" or
"unofficial" it defines the word or phrase. If it is not, however, it
would seem to not define but to mis-define the word or phrase. I
suppose, though, that any definition is a definition, even if it's a
wrong definition.

However, the definition of a Quaker as something *other* than a member
of the Society of Friends is, as we have seen from this analysis, an
"unofficial" definition. It's at variance with the "official"
definitions that have been posted from various Faith and Practices
because the phrase "name of a member of the Religious Society of
Friends" still means the same thing--membership--whether there is an
"unofficial" in front of it or not.

A member of the New York Yankees is a member of the New York Yankees
whether "Bronx Bomber" (the unofficial name of the New York Yankees)
is applied to him or not. One is not a member of the "Bronx Bombers"
simply because one identifies with the team, wears its colors, goes to
its games and fantasizes, as he goes to sleep at night, that he is
striking out the Boston Red Sox lineup, in order. Nor does the term
"Bronx Bombers" describe some set of people that is not encompassed by
the phrase member of the New York Yankees.

As I have said, your argument would move me if what was written was
"unofficial member of the Religious Society of Friends" because then
removing the "unofficial" would change the meaning of the phrase. But
that's not what's written.

Having laid this out, now, as clearly as I can, I will refrain from re
posting on this unless something you post in this regard makes me
rethink. Merely reasserting, however, that you are right and I am
wrong will not do that.

Thanks for providing the opportunity to think this through in more
depth. I am open, as I say, to anything you can provide to expand or
change my thinking in this regard but, otherwise, am laying this
discussion down.

Timothy Travis
Bridge City Friends Meeting
Portland, Oregon

"If God is alive and acive in the affairs of human beings,
why cannot his voice be heard and obeyed today? It can
and is heard by all who will know Him as present Teacher
and Prophet."
Richard Foster, Jr.
Celebration of Discipline
.

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