Re: The meaning of 'understanding' and 'discussing'
- From: "Gerald Fuller" <gfuller1930@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 16:11:21 -0000
"John" <ewsnet@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1359ibij5c5l42d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The Bible is written in English, John.
English text should be able to be understood.
If you can't understand what Acts 17:11 means or
what 2 Tim. 3:16 means in the text itself, what
makes you think you will be able to understand it
any more clearly when *I* explain it (also in English)?
This is specifically not intended to bring on a conversation with Jeff. I
respect his right to have beliefs different from mine, and to resist
discussing them other than to repeat them. But this is more intended for
John and any others that might be intersted.
As for whether the Bible is written in English, well some copies of it are
in English. Some in German some in Spanish, etc. I have a few copies of it
written in various versions of English and by way of www.biblegateway.com, I
have access to it in more versions of English and several other languages
(which I do not read, write or speak, so they are useless to me)
Snip the function of a "minister" on Sunday.
If I wanted to join your church, or say any other church, to keep it
from sounding personal, and I asked the 'minister' to please explain
the holy ghost and the old testament, can I figure that his reply will
basically be "if you are to stupid to read the Bible, too bad" because
that is really what you are saying to me?
Our missionaries, I think, give a brief explanation along with recommended
readings. I think boht may be helpful. Very possbly neither alone is
adequate. Most people who are willing even to listen to someone mention
"religion" or matters of the spirit etc, have already been introduced or
exposed, and either developed some understanding, correct or incorrect, or
maybe developed an aversion or inocculation. I have had discussions with
minsiters of different denomination and persuasions as well and that is the
general course of what they have done. They have told me what they believe,
pointed me to supporting scriptures or other "evidence" that they found
credible, and then in usually a friendly way accepted and countered my
arguments and quetions. If they have not, then my patience has grown thin.
I had a pair of Jehovah's Wintesses visit me several years ago. One of them
kept coming back approximately monthly for quite a while. We truly enjoyed
each other's conversation I think. He susually left me something to read. He
never told me that it was what it said and needed no further discussion. Of
course I did and do find most of their writing more understandable than the
KJV.
Snip
Yes, of course I have seen that LDS "reject" many of the
passages of the Bible that I cite.
I am not sure that I totally reject anything that can be cited in the Bible.
I am sure that I do reject the understanding that many may have of various
portions of the Bible. There is a difference. That is why more than just
citing a reference is needed if anyone hopes to get me to understand what
they are saying, let alone agree with them.
Snip
There is, after all, no place in the Bible, wherein the Lord proclaims
that its all in there, its all important, and not only is it perfect,
but that He will never send more light and knowledge.
And that is an important difference between me (and some others who may be
like me) compared to those who believe in the infallibility and plenary
inspiration of _ANY_ version of the Bible.
That is the basis for
my belief that despite claims otherwise, in practice LDS
do *not* accept the teachings of the Bible.
And of courese we do not claim to believe everything that just anyone else
may claim to be the teachings of the Bible.
Well, you are wrong to say that, and if you haven't gotten it right in
13 years, I doubt a usenet forum will be of much help.
There are many things that people of other faiths believe the Bible
teaches, which LDS people reject. It is also apparent that there are
things in the Bible, which -you- reject, and that is why we are here.
No, John, despite many attempts on my part, I have
*never* been able to see that LDS "apply differently"
these texts, because no LDS seems willing or able
to explain to me a *positive* interpretation for
what they think they mean.
Snip
Can you tell me *your* interpretation of them
(like I've been asking for many years)?
You haven't been asking me for years.
Now I am willing to state to any and all just a few things at a time. I will
try Acts 17:11 first. It actually says the same thing in "The New
International Version" as does the KJV.
In Berea
10 As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea.
On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue.
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for
they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures
every day to see if what Paul said was true.
12 Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women
and many Greek men.
Here we are told the Bereans were more "noble" than others had been. Here is
what I find about "noble"
eugenes {yoog-en'-ace}
Greek: adjective
Possible Definitions:
1) well born, of noble race
2) noble minded
eugenes {yoog-en'-ace}
Greek: adjective
from 2095 and 1096;
Translated as:
nobleman (1 time)
more noble (1 time)
noble (1 time)
Total: 3 times
I am led by my brain and I would claim by the understanding of the Holy
Spirit to choose the 2nd possible definition. That means to me that the
Bereans were willing to give Paul's teachings, which were fairly obviously
new to them, a fair hearing. So they studied the writings that were
available to them to see if there was anything that Paul said that was
obviously against the old teachings. They certainly did not search any
scriptures that had not yet been written. Nor any that were not available to
them.
prothumia {proth-oo-mee'-ah}
Greek: noun feminine
Possible Definitions:
1) zeal, spirit, eagerness
2) inclination, readiness of mind
prothumia {proth-oo-mee'-ah}
Greek: noun feminine
from 4289;
Translated as:
forwardness of mind (1 time)
readiness (1 time)
readiness of mind (1 time)
ready mind (1 time)
willing mind (1 time)
Total: 5 times
Strong's Number 4288
These Bereans "received" Paul's teaching with readiness and then checked it.
Here is what I have found about the word translated as "readiness"
prothumia {proth-oo-mee'-ah}
Greek: noun feminine
Possible Definitions:
1) zeal, spirit, eagerness
2) inclination, readiness of mind
prothumia {proth-oo-mee'-ah}
Greek: noun feminine
from 4289;
Translated as:
forwardness of mind (1 time)
readiness (1 time)
readiness of mind (1 time)
ready mind (1 time)
willing mind (1 time)
Total: 5 times
Strong's Number 4288
I am ready to assume that the Jews at Thessalonica, mentioned in verse 14
had the same Scriptures as the Bereans had, but they needed the light and
knowledge that Paul taught, and they were not ready to believe it. They took
the approach that all that was needed they already had. And they wanted to
deprive the Bereans of getting it. Strangely similar to today.
Now I will consider 2 Timothy 3:16
Here "IT" is from "The Message"
But really, let's start a bit earlier than verse 16 so we can get an idea
what Paul is talking about.
Keep the Message Alive
10-13 You've been a good apprentice to me, a part of my teaching, my manner
of life, direction, faith, steadiness, love, patience, troubles,
sufferings-suffering along with me in all the grief I had to put up with in
Antioch, Iconium, and Lystra. And you also well know that God rescued me!
Anyone who wants to live all out for Christ is in for a lot of trouble;
there's no getting around it. Unscrupulous con men will continue to exploit
the faith. They're as deceived as the people they lead astray. As long as
they are out there, things can only get worse.
14-17 But don't let it faze you. Stick with what you learned and believed,
sure of the integrity of your teachers-why, you took in the sacred
Scriptures with your mother's milk! There's nothing like the written Word of
God for showing you the way to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Every part of Scripture is God-breathed and useful one way or
another-showing us truth, exposing our rebellion, correcting our mistakes,
training us to live God's way. Through the Word we are put together and
shaped up for the tasks God has for us.
He is praising Timothy for his constance and attendance. He then says that
there will be crooked people who want to exploit the Christian faith. Paul
says these people are deceived. But he tells Timothy to remember who taught
him what he knows, and to trust that and not what these other people tell
him. He praises Timothy (and his mother) that Timothy has studied the
scriptures all his life. But here is what the word "scriptures" apparently
meant as used by Paul
gramma {gram'-mah}
Greek: noun neuter
Possible Definitions:
1) a letter
2) any writing, a document or record
2a) a note of hand, bill, bond, account, written acknowledgement of a
debt
2b) a letter, an epistle
2c) the sacred writings (of the Old Testament)
3) letters, i.e. learning, of sacred learning
gramma {gram'-mah}
Greek: noun neuter
from 1125;
Translated as:
letter (9 times)
bill (2 times)
writing (1 time)
learning (1 time)
scripture (1 time)
written (1 time)
Total: 15 times
Strong's Number 1121
Unfortunately both KJV and "The Message" contain the same error or omission.
They say that "all scriptures" meaning all writings are inspired of God.
That simply cannot be true unless God inspires evil and falsehood. Some part
of that is supplied by the translators rather than being in the Greek
anyway.
The reader can supply his own examples of evil writings.
Gene
.
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