Re: I want to do a youth fireside on the following topic--want feedback:

I think that my words alone are not adequate to explain my position, so
I think that I should try using the words of another to do so.

"Ours is to explain our position through reason, friendly persuasion,
and accurate facts. Ours is to stand firm and unyielding on the moral
issues of the day and the eternal principles of the gospel, but to
contend with no man or organization. Contention builds walls and puts
up barriers. Love opens doors. Ours is to be heard and teach. Ours is
not only to avoid contention, but to see that such things are done
away...There are still those among us who would rather lose a friend
than an argument. How important it is to know how to disagree without
being disagreeable. It behooves all of us to be in the position to
involve ourselves in factual discussions and meaningful study, but
never in bitter arguments and contention...In place of arguments and
friction between family members, ours is to build, listen, and reason
together." - Marvin J. Ashton

Elder Ashton understood a simple thing which for some reason I am not
getting across. That is that "love" is the key, and that avoiding
disagreement is not the solution, whether "reasoning together" is the
answer. I do not doubt that there is a time when a discussion becomes
an argument, and ceases to serve a good purpose. I also understand that
it is at that time that members of the Church are obligated to respond
with kindness, with humility, and be quick to turn the other cheek, and
to apologize. The Church nor its members have a place in contention, or
in vain and foolish arguments. This does not mean that we should not
reason together, that we should not talk with each and that we should
not disagree. The Prophet has made it clear that we can "disagree
without being disagreeable..."

It seems to me that at least subconsciously you understand this because
you have disagreed with me without being disagreeable, except I think
that may change if I am not careful in how I respond to you. It seems
from your tone, and the content of your posts that you aren't seeing
where I am coming from. I am not sure if that is because you aren't
willing to understand or if I am not understanding you as I should. But
what I do see is that there is a difference of opinion, and of
understanding of where the Church actually stands on this issue.

It seems that we have a difference of understanding on the scripture
about "turning the other cheek" as well, I see this scripture in the
cultural, social, political, and religious setting that it took place.
At a time when the Zealot movement was at its peak, and where just 20
years before there was a Zealot uprising that was put down by the
Romans I see this in a different context than you do. I do not see
Jesus advocating walking away, whether of staying, and not giving up. I
see his teaching as non-violent resistence, of not returning "evil for
evil" whether good for evil. We can and should not give up, or back
down on even the most trivial matters but we don't need to be
contentious. We can only control our own attitude and actions, not the
attitude or actions of others. Therefore so long as we reason with
others and avoid contention than the rest is left to them, and like I
said. It is only acceptable to end a discussion when one party or the
other isn't willing to listen, or to understand, and where one party or
the other is trying to threaten or intimidate another party, or where
one party isn't willing to continue the discussion. That is the key. I
really think that is what I am trying to get across to you. Not that
you should continue until someone loses their temple just to prove you
are right. In fact, if your motive is to just prove that you are right,
it is because you have a contentious spirit and should seriously
consider ending the conversation before it even starts.

Now, back to the words of Elder Ashton, for I think that my words alone
are not enough to explain myself and if I continue in that line than I
am sure that nothing good is going to come of this discussion. Elder
Ashton offers several ways to avoid contentions, 1) "pray to have the
love of God in your heart," 2) "learn to control your tongue," 3)
"don't allow emotions to take over; rather, reason together, 4)
"refuse to get embroiled in the same old patterns of argument and
confrontation," and 5) "practice speaking in a soft, calm voice."

Now, I hope you do not think that I am saying you are wrong because I
am not. You are right that at some point a discussion should end, and I
believe that point is when it becomes contentious. Until that time, it
is rude and disrespectful to not continue a discussion in which people
disagree, because it is very disagreeable to leave a conversation
simply because someone disagrees with you when they aren't being
disagreeable.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: How It Works: ed senters Might Makes Right philosophy
    ... will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without ... justice without constraint. ... I disagree WITH YOU that YOU SHOULD put guns, tanks, and nuclear ...
    (misc.taxes)
  • Re: Possible bug in Calendar
    ... fact that no reasonable person would disagree with. ... If you intend to be taken seriously, you need to act less like a third-tier goon that doesn't even rate "henchman" from some bad mobster movie and more like a Harvard graduate with some skill in a complex and intelligence-demanding field, preferably Java programming given the group topic. ... "Culture" in academia these days tends to mean Shakespeare, Conrad, Twain, Milton, and the like -- not Latin. ... I'm glad you've finally decided to come around to my point of view, and that you've finally seen reason. ...
    (comp.lang.java.programmer)
  • Re: How It Works: ed senters Might Makes Right philosophy
    ... will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without ... justice without constraint. ... I disagree WITH YOU that YOU SHOULD put guns, tanks, and nuclear ...
    (misc.taxes)
  • Re: Another Newbie Question: C or C++
    ... > whatever reason and have a piece of paper that says you can have that job, ... I seem to remember another common saying: "A person who is self taught ... Not that I entirely disagree with your statement, ... A person who only learns in school never ...
    (freebsd-questions)
  • Re: ganguly out, yuvraj in for T3
    ... > this is a point on which people can disagree; ... > should come out and say that they're dropping him because Chappell's ... On your first contention: that was ... consistent with the same selection committee retaining Ganguly after ...
    (rec.sport.cricket)