- From: "Altway" <altway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: 15 Aug 2005 16:10:08 GMT
"Joubin Houshyar" <Sun_of_27@xxxxxxxxx> wrote
>> The fact is that all things have causes and nothing can be done without
appropriate forces and Allah is the Creator of all these forces. You only
need to look into yourself to see that any idea you have simply pops into
your head. You do not create it. The same applies to your feelings, motives
> Rubish. (One gets tired of this pedantic 19th century *materialism*
masquerading as "alternative" muslim thinking ...) We know NICHT,
NADA, ZIP, about the 'nature' of the higher 'Heavens' -- "the unSeen"
-- beyond the Time-Space continuum of the Lower Heaven.
One gets tired of people who come to an Islamic site, do not understand
and do not wish to understand.
I was discussing ideas in the Quran.
I was not discussing science which does not deal in values.
but religion which is concerned with facts, meaning and values.
It is concerned with the process of living and adjustment to Reality,
not with the pretence of knowing objective, impersonal facts
rather than opinions about them.
I suppose that you require us to follow YOUR speculations instead!
However, you are criticising your own misunderstanding
> The issue is *obviously* not causation. The issue is the notion of
Actors in fields of Action. (The fact/speculation that the field is a
causal field is entirely irrelevent to the question.) Your naive
insistence on equating the field with the actors is 'a' source of your
confusion in this matter.
Where exactly did I equate the Field of action with the Actor?
This distinction exists when speaking about the Creator and Creation.
In so far as the actors are human beings their field of action is
Creation of which they are part.
> As to the comments of the questioner:
"everything is recorded":
You, and "altway", are *confused* simply because you insist on holding
on to the *illusion* of linear 'time'.
No. I see that Time can be regarded as cyclic,
and in so far as things do not repeat themselves exactly
but there is development, Time can be seen as a spiral.
i.e it has three dimensions.
> The Act of 'Seeing and Recording All Events prior to their
actualization' -- the Dominion of ALLAH -- and the Fact of your Free
Will (Choice is a Given and you will be "Judged" according to your
'Choices') are in NO WAY contradictory.
I DID say they were not contradictory.
What I said was that there was no Free Will.
There is Will and there are alternatives, but each requires a cause.
A ball in a bowl is free to move in many ways, but the actual movement
will depend on the causal forces.
> The contradiction arises 'simply' because of a 'naive' understanding of
> This is a boogaboo of 'classically inclined materialists'. (Cf.
Quantum "paradoxes" -- FACTS which bewilder the linearly inclined
scientific 'minds' as well ...)
Which is more or less the same as having a wrong Logic as I said
> "GOD Is One". & One is *'indivisible'*.
So do not create other independent centres of initiative and creation.
Hamid S. Aziz
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