Re: Full moon of "ramadan"
- From: "Yusuf B Gursey" <ybg@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: 14 Jul 2005 03:30:27 GMT
Ayman wrote:
> Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> > mainly because the crescent becomes visible at differnet times in
> > different places.
>
> Thank you for your comments.
>
> Yes, this is another reason why the new crescent makes a lousy universal
> timing device.
that all muslims have to observe the religious festivals together is
not established as a requirement.
>
> > sometime in the 1970's I remember on Turkish TV the director
> > of religious affairs (muslim) of Turkey, explaning that he advocated
> > the visibility of so many arc seconds of moon illuminated
> > and thus defending his declared date for the observance of Ramadan.
this seesm to be supported by tradition, acc. to Enc. of Islam II
article "Ru'yat al-Hilal"
> >
> > this was part of an overall effort to unifyu the Islamic calendar
> > and that he was going to defend this position in an upcoming
> > international conference on << ru'yatu~l-hila:l >> i.e.
> > sighting of the crescent and unifying the calendar. i don't
> > think the effort was succesful.
>
> Yes, now and in the past people have realized that the current so-called
> Islamic calendar is clearly defective.
it was a matter of scholars (and perhaps poiticians) agreeing
on soemthing, that's all.
>
> > that is hardly "a long time after"
>
> Well, it somewhat depends on when you think the prophet lived.
>
> > this is consistent wth the statement that the pagans and muslims
> > initally performed the pilgrimage together but towards the end
> > performed it at different times.
>
> The pre-quranic Arab pagans performed pilgrimages for their main idols,
> which were Dhu Al-Shaara, Allat, Al-Uzza, and Manwat. The pagan
Dhu al-Shara:' was more of a northern deity.
> pilgrimage was conducted around the winter solstice in celebration of
> the birth of Dhu Al-Shaara. Those celebrations culminated with the
> pagans spinning seven times around the inner sanctuary of the temple.
at any rate, the Hajj was just before autumn (roughly).
Dhu al-Shara:' was important only further north.
>
> While it is documented in the great reading (22:27) that it is Abraham
> who originally invited people to "7ajj", there is no evidence that any
> of the previous Abrahamic religions performed such pilgrimages or
> rituals at any point of time. In fact, quite to the contrary, the
> evidence shows that previous Abrahamic religions frowned on those
> pilgrimages and considered their rituals purely pagan. So this cannot be
> what Abraham invited people to.
>
> On the other hand, it is an old Semitic custom that is even referred to
> in the older parts of the Pentateuch, to have a gathering three times a
> year (See Enc. of Islam II [7ajj]). This matches well with the four
> restricted full-moons, with the first scorching full-moon being that for
> fasting while the next three signaling the gathering of "7ajj" three
> times a year.
>
> According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, "7ajj" means "debate". We
whatever you call it, the Islamic Hajj was perforwed in the last years
of the Prophet out of sync with that of the pagans, and in sync.
before. and it was done according to a lunar month (Q 2:189)
> provide for the disadvantaged. This view is attested to and is
> consistent with what is known about pre-quranic annual markets (See Enc.
> of Islam II [7ajj]).
that's not what Enc. of Islam II "Hadjdj" says.
>
> > it wasn't "wrong" at the time since the verse banning intercalation
> > wasn't revealed yet.
>
> The change in the Umar calendar was not just in the intercalation. Other
> things were also changed, such as the order of the months. The
> traditional view is that we should imitate the prophet. Yet according to
> the traditions themselves, the prophet never fasted according to the
at the end of his life, he fasted without intercalation.
> Umar calendar. This creates a major contradiction for traditionalists.
> The tradition about the Umar calendar can only prove the haphazard and
> arbitrary way by which this calendar came about.
>
> > if you look at Lane, the original system was:
> >
> > al-*sh*ita:' (winter) / al-rabi:3u~l'awwal / al-Sayf / al-qayZ /
> > ar-rabi:3u~*th*-*th*a:ni / al-xari:f
> >
> > when the 4 season system became common, two different systems formed:
> >
> > 1) al-*sh*ita:' (winter) / al-rabi:3 / al-Sayf / al-xari:f
> >
> > 2) al-*sh*ita:' (winter) / al-Sayf / al-qayZ / al-xari:f
> >
> > the first was that of sedentary, rural or city folk
> >
> > the second was that of bedouins.
> >
> > the lexicographers prefered bedouin usage, but modern arabic adopted
> > urban usage.
>
> Yes, although there were other conventions, Lisan Al-3arab refers to the
> convention of "al-*sh*ita:' (winter) / al-Sayf / al-qayZ / al-xari:f"
> as the prevailing one at the time. We are concerned with the prevailing
> usage at the time of the revelation of the great reading not the one
at that time, a six season system was used.
> that was adopted by Modern Arabic.
>
> > ar-rabi:3u~*th*-*th*a:ni: "early fall" and rabi:3u~*th*-*th*a:ni:
> > (month name) are different. the first is a noun, the other a proper name.
>
> This proper name for the month was given for a reason. This reason can
> be found by studying the etymology, which indicates that in pre-quranic
> times before the Umar calendar, it had to do with the second grazing in
> the fall.
I didn't deny it. just not neccessarily identical with
ar-rabi:3. the seasons were determined by stellar observation,
not the best method, since it introduces another long-term motion
of the Earth. but this only varies slighly over centuries. the
lunar months varied more.
>
> > no proof of that. the name of the seasons are a different matter,
> > see above.
>
> As the pre-quranic Arabs increasingly used the four season system of
> "al-*sh*ita:' (winter) / al-Sayf / al-qayZ / al-xari:f" instead of the
> six-season system, the "first rabi3" and "second rabi3" seasons were
> assimilated into months names but would not have changed their place in
the seasons originally lasted two months, so it is not surprising to
see
two consecutive months named after one.
> the calendar. The change in the order seems to have taken place sometime
> after the calendar was disconnected from the seasons.
>
> > the waxing crescent.
>
> That is not a meaning of "shahr" in Classical Arabic dictionaries. They
> simply say that Arabs used to call the moon "shahr". They are mostly not
> very specific on which stage of the moon, but the etymology points to
but "hila:l" (cresent is mentioned).
> full-moon.
which doesn't tell much.
>
> > it's the manifesting of th emon
> >
> > that it meant a waxing crescent is evident from archeaology. it
> > was also the meaning given to it by most dctionaries. attestations
> > of it as "full moon" are late and infrequent.
> >
> > whatever you think, the oldest meaning attested is "waxing crescent"
>
> No, most dictionaries simply say that Arabs used to call "al-qamar"/moon
> as "shahr". They do not specify which stage. As for "full moon"
but "hila:l" (cresent is mentioned).
> attestations, although they may be late and infrequent, they do match
> well with the etymology.
which doesn't tell much.
>
> I am also not sure what you mean by "evident from archeology". It was
> previously thought that the moon-idol of the Sabaeans was named Il Mukah
> [For example: Coon, C. S. (1944) Southern Arabia, Smithsonian,
get someone more reliable and up to date than Coon, but roughly,
yes, among other lunar dieties.
> Washington, D.C.]. However, more recent studies indicate that the
> symbols of the bull's head and the vine motif that are associated with
> this idol are solar and that he was a male partner of their sun goddess.
the deity being lunar and a consort of the Sun is not contradictory.
> Other evidence shows that the female moon goddess of the Sabaean was
> named Shayba who represented the Moon in its threefold existence -
the Moon was masculine.
> waxing, (maiden), full (pregnant mother), and waning (old wise woman).
> Notice that "ash-harat", a derivative of shahr, means pregnant mother
> whose belly is round.
not relevant. from Sabaic and medieval arabic dictionaries *sh*ahr
meant "new crescent (see Enc. of Islam II "Ta'rikh")
>
> In Ma'in the idol Wadd originated from North Arabia and probably was a
> moon god. The formula "Wadd is (my?) father" written on amulets and
> buildings, is often accompanied by a crescent moon with the small disk
> of Venus.
yes, and Wadd was associated with Shahr.
> > roughly a month after the summer solictice.
>
> Yes, this is in agreement with "shahr ramadan" being the first full-moon
> after the summer solstice.
roughly. the calendar varied a little, and not "full moon".
>
> > > Now the next question to ask is about the year. Is the year in the great
> > > reading solar or lunar?
> >
> > discussed before.
>
> Yes, at the time I showed you 17:12. Here is Y. Ali's translation
> (emphasis mine):
>
> 017.012
> YUSUFALI: WE HAVE MADE THE NIGHT AND THE DAY as two (of Our) Signs: the
> Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have
> made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and THAT
> YE MAY KNOW THE NUMBER AND COUNT OF THE YEARS: all things have We
> explained in detail.
>
> Given that night and day is determined by the sun and not the moon, the
> sign in 17:12 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is solar.
>
> As far as I remember, your counterargument was that 17:12 is a
> "loophole" in the great reading. I am sorry but this was not a
I didn't say "loophole"
it could be:
a) this verse was abrogated later.
b) solar calendars are permissible,
but not luni-solar ones.
c) years are expressed in terms of days,
which is determined by the Sun
Q 10:5 favors a lunar calendar and acc. to Enc. of the Qur'an was cited
as authority for a lunar calendar by commentators.
010.005
YUSUF ALI: It is He Who made the Sun to be a shining glory and the Moon
to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; that ye
{actually in the arabic it is "him" (the moon is masculine and the sun
feminine).}
might know the number of years and the count (of time). Nowise did
Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He
explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.
the arabic is:
huwa~-lla*dh*i: ja3ala~*sh*-*sh*amsa Diya:'an wa~l-qamara nu:ran
wa-qaddarahu mana:zila li-ta3lamu: 3adada~s-sini:na wa~l-Hisa:ba ...
what the commentators point out to is << qaddarahu >> "he measured
out (or ordained) stages (or (Lunar) Mansions) for it (masc. sing.)"
it's
qaddarahu "measured out stages for it (masc sing.)", refering to the
moon, not qaddaraha: "measured out the stages for it (fem. sing.)",
refering to the sun and not qaddarahuma: "measured out stages for
the two of them" refering to both.
so using ALL the relevant verses: the calendar was luni-solar
but became purely lunar by Qur'anic decree, as is traditionally
assumed.
> convincing argument back then and it is no more convincing now.
>
> > both intercalation and simple declaration of holy or profane
> > months is attested for pre-islamic times.
> >
> > an intercalary lunar calendar is attested for pre-islamic times.
>
> It cannot mean both. Which one do you think is more likely to mean
> "nasi'a"?
there is no reason that an observance could be delayed
either through decree or by intercalation. I woudl
favor the meaning of intercalation, but more data
may prove otherwise.
>
> An intercalary lunar calendar continues to be used and is attested for
> even today. However, Classical Arabic dictionaries say that "nasi'a"
> means "delay" and that the Arabs used to delay the start of the
> restriction.
>
> > you cannot have 13 lunations in a solar year.
>
> This contradicts what you said earlier about "shahr" meaning "the waxing
> crescent". There can be 13 waxing crescents in a solar year. Are you now
huh?
> suddenly changing your mind and the meaning of "shahr" to lunar cycle
I didn't say that. a lunar cycle is the time from any one phase of the
moon
to the when it repeats itself.
> (lunations)? In this case, there are in fact twelve and a third
> lunations per solar year, never twelve.
yes. and that is less than 13. thus there are only twelve phases
of the moon repating itself in a solar year. thus 12 there are
new crescents in a solar year never 13.
>
> I look forward to you resolving this contradiction.
yours is the contradiction
arguing about mathematics is a waste of time.
it happened before when you claimed that great circle routes
and line of sight routes are dissimilar, or that one has
to turn right or left on great circle routes (on has to
to do so only with respect to compass directions, unless going
N - S or equatorially), or that "East" was determined
by the winter solstice (at the equinoxes the sun rises east
and sets west). if you don't accept these, learn some math
and astronomy.
.
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