Re: TRUTH ON TRIAL 2
- From: ""@rulink.rutgers.edu (1Wit)
- Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 02:12:01 GMT
Denis Giron <denis_giron@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Nov 28, 9:19 pm, ""@rulink.rutgers.edu (1Wit) wrote:
Exo 34:28 And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten
commandments.
I'm curious as to where in the text it states that the ten
commandments (and only the ten commandments!) was a law incumbent upon
gentiles. Not that Jewish beliefs are the stick by which Christian
doctrine is measured, but *perhaps* it is worth noting that the Jews
themselves don't seem to believe the ten commandments were a covenant
made with the whole world (rather they argue that the covenant in
Genesis 9 is the one made with the whole world, which today they call
the Noachide mitsvot).
You are right. the law is not incumbent upon gentiles. But what is a gentile? The
minute a person is saved, they become a member of the tabernacle of Jesus. Also called
the body of Jesus. The tabernacle in the wilderness was laid out in the form of a man.
Two arms with their three parts. Two legs with their three parts. Four limbs with
three parts each make twelve. The first tabernacle was built to represent the shadow
of the body of Jesus. Jesus is the head of the body, and Jesus was of the house of
Judah. So the whole body is of the house of Judah. So when a person is saved, they
also are of that body, and of the house of Judah, through Jesus. Therefore, no longer
a gentile. I just assumed that everyone knew this, because of what Paul said in Rom
2:28 For he is not a Judaean, which is one outwardly. Therefore, the covenant
commandments are incumbent upon all Israel, including, the house of Judah.
As touching covenants. God made a covenant with Noah. As a token of the covenant, he
set his bow in the clouds. Gen 9:12. The word used for token is 'owth H226. This word
is also used for "a sign". God made a covenant with Abraham. The token or sign of the
covenant was circumcision. Gen 17:11 Then God made a covenant with the people of
Israel. The token or sign was the Sabbath. Exo 31:13 Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep:
for it is a "sign token" between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may
know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. Therefore the forth commandment is
the" sign". This token or sign was given to all Israelites, including the house of
Judah. In what is called the new covenant, there was no terms or sign given. There was
nothing given except the words new covenant, and where the laws would be written.
Because people should know that the covenant commandments were incumbent up on Jesus.
So if the commandments are incumbent upon the head of the body. The body must follow
suit.
This also has other ramifications. The beast spoken of in Revelation, is also shown in
Dan 11:30 and have "indignation against" the holy covenant: and have intelligence
with them that "forsake" the holy covenant. I knew that the followers of the beast,
would expose themselves. But I didn't think it would be this early.
Whatever the case, perhaps we should compare Exodus 12:49, Leviticus
24:22, Numbers 15:16 and Numbers 15:29 with the 15th chapter of Acts.
I mention this because of your appeal to Isaiah. It seems Matthew is
correct, that the passage is referring to concerts to Judaism. But you
disagree. So, consider the passages just mentioned. They all seem to
have a single law for Jew and gentile living amongst Jews. I take that
to be a reference to conversion to Judaism, but in line with how you
approach the passage in Isaiah, one could conclude that gentile
Christians are required to keep all of the Jewish law.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb
for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. You are not bound by these laws, but
Malachi said to "remember" them. Lev 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your
heads, There are those in Israel today, that let the hair grow on the front sides of
their head, to keep this law. I think they are called the orthodox. This law is only
the shadow of the true spiritual application. Round equals "To compass". Corners
equals mouths. So thou shalt not "compass" the "mouths" of your heads. Basically
saying, you are not allowed to tell your heads ( leaders ) what to say or what not to
say. Thou shalt not kindle a fire on the Sabbath day. The Sabbath day was made for
man, to spend time with God. A fire is caused by friction. Friction can cause a hostel
state. God does not want to spend time with you, while you are in a hostel state. It
is hard to give instruction when the receiver is on fire. The laws were given in
carnal concrete form. These are the shadow of the spiritual. These are only two
example's and there are many.
Malachi said to "remember" because these laws are good advise, about how to get along
with God. God would not be pleased, if you let someone tell you, not to speak on a
subject, after God told you to do it. God would not be pleased, if he came to instruct
you on ways of peace, and you are on fire or in a hostel state. Thou shalt not eat the
flesh of a pig. I heard of a preacher somewhere in Texas, that would take the
collected money from church and go to Vegas with it. He would come back just in time
to take up another offering. So he would clean himself up, and be presentable to the
people, then he would return to wallowing in the mire. This law is God's way of
telling you, do not eat anything produced spiritually, by this man or this type of
man. Because he is corrupt and you could become corrupt by eating that which is
produced by him. The carnal is the shadow of the spiritual.
I use the reference in Isa. because Isa. said the HOLY mountain. The holy mountain is
Zion. It is clear that God did not intend to bring his people "back" to Sinai. Luke
21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that ""all things which are written"" may
be fulfilled. So if all things are to be fulfilled at the end or last days. The
mountain spoken of by Isa. must have been Zion. This is the mountain that Jesus
founded. Jewish converts could not come to the spiritual mountain. The spiritual
mountain is exclusive to the spiritual Israel. The way to the mountain is through the
court of the tabernacle. One can not enter the court, unless he is a member of the
limbs outside of the court. No one can be a member of the limbs, unless he has been
saved.
This is where Acts 15 comes into play, as it is there that the Church
(at the Council of Jerusalem) decided what aspects of the Jewish law
gentiles should keep. Notice that we do not see anyone raising a
stink, trying to dispute the Council's decision by citing the passages
in Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers I just called to witness. The Bishops
had spoken, that was it. It seems to me that the ultimate lesson to be
derived is that the Church decides the issues, not some competition of
"my private interpretation vs your private interpretation".
Again there are two circumcisions. One carnal, the other spiritual. Where are these
men of these councils? I think they are all dead. Should the living seek answers from
the dead? Especially when there is a living God that has the ability to speak. There
is also a large host of "living messengers" ready to answer questions. The problem is,
on the day set aside by God to instruct, no one show's up. God does not come to you on
your terms, you must come to him on his terms. Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the
LORD than to put confidence in man. And when God puts you on a path of learning Isa
30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye
in it, You know that what I'm telling you is possible. But it is not happening to you.
Why not?
As far as circumcision is concerned. No one can be a member of the tabernacle, until
he is circumcised in the heart. This does not place them in the court of the
tabernacle. They are of the arms and legs of the body. The court is reserved for the
vital organs. But the vital organs are taken from the arms and legs. There are ten
long bones in the body. These produce the blood of the body. There are ten
commandments which are the bones of the spiritual body. These produce the blood of the
spiritual body. Which is righteousness. Therefore, the righteous blood of the spirit,
is pumped through the body by the heart, where the laws are written. Righteousness is
doing things right, the way God said to do them right. Isa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye
that know righteousness, the people in "whose heart" is my law; Those under the new
covenant have these laws "written in their heart".
It is worth noting that (A) the Council of Jerusalem recorded in Acts
did not make keeping the sabbath incumbent on gentiles, and (B) the
Church after New Testament times never required such. In fact, it
seems that since the earliest times, Christians kept kyriake, not the
Sabbath, as their chief day of worship. This makes Acts 20:7, 1
Corinthians 16:2, and especially Revelation 1:10 all the more
relevant.
1 Cor 16:2. Upon the first "day" of the week. The word "day" was added by the
translator's. This word is not in the Greek testaments. What this actually said was,"
upon the first of the Sabbaths" For Sabbath, they translated week. So this verse does
not say anything about the first DAY of the week. This would place the time at the
first of the week of Sabbaths, between passover and Pentecost. The same in Acts 20:7.
As far as Rev. 1:10 is concerned. The word "ON" the Lords day, can also be translated
as, IN the Lords day. G1722. Because this is the time he was speaking of. The day of
the Lord or the end time event. In the beginning of the catholic church there were
many Gods in the Roman world, Each had their day as the first day of the week. The
pagans had their "Lords Day" for their God's. The Living God, had his day on the
seventh day. Exo 31:13 for it is a sign between me and you throughout your
generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. So to change
the Sabbath of the Living God, to the day of other Gods is sacrilegious. The writer of
Rev. would not associate the living God, with the day of other God's. Just like they
placed the name of Jesus, among the birthday of the other Gods. The excuse they used
was, by switching days, the pagans, would be worshiping God ignorantly.
Of the over 30 gosples written. The catholics chose only 4.
You don't know what Jesus said in the others.
Huh? This surprised me. I had you pegged as a standard Sabbatarian
(i.e. one of these types which reveres the KJV, like the Seventh Day
Adventists, though not necessarily a Seventh Day Adventist). Does the
above mean you believe in other gospels not considered part of the
canon by the broad spectrum of mainstream Christians (i.e.
Protestants, Roman Catholics, Orthodox)?
The reason I inserted this is because every time I bring this up, someone will say,
that Jesus never said to keep the Sabbath. So I say. How can you know this, "for
sure" if you know you don't have all the evidence. John 21:25 Actually Jesus did
mention the Sabbath. Mat 24:20. As far as the KJV goes. I use it because most bible
programs are synchronized to match it. I'm familiar with it, and it's vocabulary. I
also know of many mistakes in it. This version is no more biased than the others. If
you were to take a survey right now, you would probably find that 90 percent of the
people using computer based bible programs, are using the KJV. Because it is FREE. So
much for the majority text. Some people don't have a lot of money to buy expensive
programs. They use the free bible programs. Mostly E-sword or OLB. This I have said
though. If you use a bible that does not have a dictionary, such as Strongs, coded to
it, you will be the looser. You have placed the translators, between you and God.
Because translations or interpretations are not always correct. God will stand behind
his word, but he will not honor someone's false interpretation of it. Mat 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and "FEW"
there be that find it. By the meaning of the word FEW. This can not be the broad
spectrum of mainstream believers.
Whatever the case, I'm not sure I understand such an argument.
Couldn't we presuppose anything from such a vacuum and silence?
Couldn't we make an appeal to a hypothetical lost Gospel which
accurately records Jesus saying emphatically that gentiles don't have
to keep the Sabbath?
I believe I answered this above.
Jesus did, make this statement. Nothing can pass from
the law, till ALL be fulfilled. Mat 5:18
And in what sense do you consider this relevant? Do you believe
gentiles therefore have to follow the entirety of Old Testament Jewish
law? Circumcision? Dietary laws? Stonings?
I also think I answered this above. All things spiritual.
.
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