Re: Why it is godly to CHOOSE to go to Hell

>
> "9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand
> slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but
> everyone to come to repentance."
>

Agree with you there.

> God wouldn't create mankind hoping to condemn them all. What would be
> the purpose in sending his son? God has given mankind free human
> choice. While he is omniscient, he has allowed us to make our own
> decisions and answer the call. God does not make the decision for us.
>

Actually, He DOES. That is what predestination means. God "predestines"
people to be saved, which means he made the decision before the
foundation of the world.

> If God has given us His commandments, His gospel, and His Holy Spirit,
> why would He desire for us to nominate to go to Hell?
>

Fair enough. My point was not that we would ACTUALLY choose to go to
hell. My point was merely a hypothetical, which can be restated in the
following IF/THEN clause:

IF anyone goes to hell (to be tortured for all eternity), THEN it would
be noble for everyone else to join them, as an act of unselfish love.

It just so happens, however, that NOBODY will actually be tortured for
all eternity. I will explain more below.

> Second, what scripture do you have from the Bible that tells us those
> condemned to hell will eventually make it into Heaven. As far as the
> Bible is concerned, you go one place or the other and that is final.
> Every reference to Hell in the Bible coins it as "everlasting" or
> "eternal". See the following scripture in Matt 25:41-46...
>

1 Peter 3:18-20
"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the
unrighteous, to bring you to God......he was put to death in the body,
but made alive in the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to
the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago....."

Thus, if Christ has gone before to preach to the spirits in prison, he
could do it again. And in the next few verses it explains WHY Christ
went to preach to the imprisoned spirits:

1 Peter 4:6
"For this is the reason the gospel was preached EVEN TO THOSE NOW DEAD,
so that they might be judged according to man in regard to the body,
but live according to God in regard to the spirit."

The gospel was preached to those who were dead, in order that they can
live according to God in regard to the spirit. This is a synonym for
"getting saved." And if it happened in the past, there is no reason why
it might not happen again.

Romans 11:32 says God will have mercy on "all men."
1 Cor 15:22 says that even as IN ADAM all died, even so IN CHRIST shall
"all" be made alive.
1 Tim 4:10 says that Christ is the savior of "all men."

Romans Chapter 5 is the longest, most sustained passage that I have
found in which Paul seems to argue for universal salvation.
So let us look at it more closely. Starting in verse 12: (Sorry, this
is a bit long, but I feel the subject is important enough, so lets
plunge in)

Bible:
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death
through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all
sinned-- for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is
not
taken into account when there is no law."

Comment:
What does Paul mean, sin is not taken into account when there is no
law? Does this mean literally what it appears to mean, that sin is
literally not taken into account if there is no law? If so, then all
men outside the tradition of the Abrahamic Religions would seem to be
in the clear.

Bible:
"Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of
Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did
Adam, who was a PATTERN OF THE ONE TO COME."

Comment:
I emphasized above that Adam is to be understood as a pattern of the
Lord Jesus Christ.

Bible:
"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the
trespass of the one man, HOW MUCH MORE did God's grace and the gift
that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, OVERFLOW TO THE
MANY!"

Comment:
The many died by the trespass of Adam. Everyone agrees that this "many"
means the entire human race. Thus, the grace that comes from Jesus must
be even greater! Or else Paul has no reason to say "how much more." Nor
would the metaphor of "overflowing" be a good one, if the salvation by
grace does not extend more widely than the damnation that flowed from
Adam's trespass. Christ's grace must be more universal and stronger
than the sin of Adam. Because Christ is greater than Adam, and Christ
restores all that Adam messed up.

Bible:
"Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin.
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift
followed many trespasses and brought justification."

Comment:
Again, Paul is saying that the gift of salvation is MORE EFFECTIVE than
the error of Adam. It followed many trespasses, and brought
justification.

Bible:
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one
man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of
Grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man,
Jesus Christ."

Comment:
Here somebody might say that only "those who receive Gods abundant
provision" will reign in life. But I doubt that Paul meant it that way.
And I believe Paul backs me up, making it clear in the next few verses.
Paul means that EVERYONE will eventually receive it. The next few
verses back me up:

Bible:
"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for
all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was
justification that brings life for all men."

Comment:
If Paul had meant to restrict the effectiveness of the single act of
righteousness that Christ did, He would not have said it brings life
for ALL MEN. He would have said, that Christ's act of righteousness
only brings life for SOME MEN. But He said ALL MEN. Not SOME.

Bible:
"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made
sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be
made righteous."

Comment:
Again, Adam's sin made "the many" sinners. The parallel structure means
that this very same "many" will be made righteous. Paul is emphasizing
parallel structure here, and He calls Adam the prototype of Christ.
Adam's apple-eating sin made us all worthy of damnation. Most people
don't like that. But Christ's atonement on the cross made us ALL
righteous. The parallel structure is so clear to me.

Bible:
"The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin
increased, grace increased all the more. So that, just as sin reigned
in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring
eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Comment:
The law was added. Why? So that trespass might increase. Remember, sin
is NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT where there is no law. So the law of Moses
increased the trespasses. But guess what? Where sin increased, GRACE
INCREASED EVEN MORE! Excuse me, but how does this square with any idea
that Adam's sin is more effective that Christ's Grace? No, Grace is the
one that totally conquers and utterly destroys sin and death in the
end.

Grace and Mercy and Love will be absolutely triumphant!!!! The Lord is
truly love. His love, grace, and mercy extend to all. We can truly love
Him, for He first loved us. All of us. He demonstrates his love for us,
in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Temporary damnation is still needed. I mean, who would think that
Hitler or Stalin should get off scott free? And I think that many
rebellious people will spend a certain length of time in hell. Since
hell still exists, that is why we still should try to save people. But
in the end, God's love will be like an infinite ocean, and we will all
be overwhelmed in the depth of God's love forever.



> 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are
> cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42
> For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you
> gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me
> in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in
> prison and you did not look after me.'
> 44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty
> or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help
> you?'
> 45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for
> one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
> 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to
> eternal life."
>

Two points about the above passage:

1. First it says the eternal fire was prepared for "the devil and his
angels." If God is omniscient, he would know the future. So he would
not prepare the eternal fire JUST FOR the devil and his angels, unless
that was ACTUALLY WHO WOULD REMAIN THERE for all eternity. So I believe
that even if humans enter the eternal fire for a little while, they
will eventually get out of it. Otherwise, Christ would have said,
"depart from me, into the eternal fire prepared FOR YOU from the
foundation of the world."

2. Second, at the end of the passage, it says they go to eternal
PUNISHMENT, not eternal DAMNATION. Damnation is a very different thing
than punishment. Punishment does not equal damnation. The fire is
eternal, but the punishment does not consist of permanenetly remaining
inside that eternal fire. And 1 Cor 3:15 makes it clear that you can
enter the flames for a little while, and still be saved:

"If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but

only as one escaping through the flames."


> Or in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9...
>
> "8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel
> of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction
> and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his
> power 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to
> be marveled at among all those who have believed..."
>

1. First, it says "everlasting destruction." This fits in nicely with
the idea that the damned are "annihilated" rather than consciously
tortured by God's "love" for billions upon billions of years.

2. Second, if eternal conscious torment is true, even after billions
upon billions of years of torture, the damned will have hardly begun to
pay for their sins. Billions upon billions of humans will spend
trillions upon trillions of years in agony, and yet that length of time
will be like a blink of an eye compared to the eternity that yet awaits
them. Trillions upon trillions of years is LESS THAN A BLINK OF AN EYE
against the horizon of eternity. People who believe in eternal torment
rarely consider the implications of their beliefs. I encourage you to
work out the full implications of your hideous doctrine.

3. Eternal consious torment has NOTHING TO DO WITH LOVE. If eternal
conscious torment is true, then God is not "love" by any stretch of the
imagination. But thanks be to God, he IS LOVE, as it tells us so
forcefully in Romans 5 and so many other places.

> The point is that God requires our obedience if we truly love him (John
> 14:15). The salvation of Christ is for those who obey the law of
> Christ (Hebrews 5:8-9).
>

I agree that you have to obey the law of Christ. But my claim is that
even though probably the majority of humans will enter hell and spend
some time there, God will still give them a way out after a certain
length of time. He will preach to them again, just like it tells us in
1 Peter.

> I can go on forever about this. What I'm trying to say is that there
> is no Biblical foundation for your arguments. Christianity teaches God
> desires us all to answer the call and that heaven/hell is eternal.

I realize that this is the common belief. I believe that this is just a
relic of the corrupt form of Roman Catholic Christianity that still
needs to be reformed.

Martin Luther and Calvin didn't go far enough. They recovered the true
gospel, that it is by grace and not by works. But we need a second
reformation, in which we realize the full glory of grace, extended to
all, and the universal extent of God's mercy, which is absolutely
triumphant in the end.

One final question. We are told that in heaven there will be "no more
tears." So let me pose a hypothetical: What if a mother is saved, but
her children are condemned to eternal torment?

Do you believe that mother will not cry for her children? If so, than
apparently God takes a lobotomy saw to her frontal lobe. How is it
possible for a mother to not weep for her damned children?

Lets broaden the question. How is it possible for the saved to rejoice
if the damned writhe in agony? How is this "happiness?" What kind of
sick sadism must be prevalent in heaven, if the saved are rejoicing in
the destruction of the wicked?

Sorry. I hope I have made it clear that although temporary hell is
okay, eternal hell is highly questionable and needs to be removed from
our minds.

God will have mercy on ALL MEN! Otherwise, you had best delete Romans
11:32 from your Bible.


.

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