Re: Pilgrims' Notes

Hi Kent,

It is my contention that 'Abdu'l-Baha said pretty much every idea and
sentiment found in Promulgation of Universal Peace and Paris Talks, but Mark
and Susan routinely call those two works "Pilgrims' Notes".

You can certainly believe that. People will generally only object if you state
your belief in a way that seems to them to be too authoritative.

What is 'Pilgrims Notes'? There is a wide range from "something I wrote
down from memory a week after I got back from pilgrimage (and there was
also a two week boat trip in there)" to notes that were made in English (or
French ...) of a talk and simultaneous translation. If the notes were then
translated back into Farsi and approved by Abdul-Baha and a copy of this
approved text was preserved, then it is clearly not Pilgrims Notes (e.g. SAQ).
Otherwise there is great potential for error. Probably the translators of many
of Abdul-Baha's talks were pretty good and the notes of the translations were
pretty good but there is potential for error and it is not authenticated.

We can read it and we can use it to broaden our understanding (as we both
do) but we must always remember that it is not authoritative.

We can ask our selves what a pretty good translator, working on the fly,
would have made of the "I_was_a_hidden_treasure" tablet written by
Abdul-Baha when he was a teenager in Bagdad. And what would the English
transcript of that translation have looked like? I think it would
have needed a
LOT of correction. Some of the concepts that Abdul-Baha presented in His
talks are not easy so there was a lot of potential for error.

Cheers,
Tom

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 9:44 AM, Kent Johnson <kent@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Susan, Let me remind you that I did not write the message you answered,
I was just the messenger. I have passed your message on to the writer. But
the following is from me, starting by a repeat of what I said originally:

It is my contention that 'Abdu'l-Baha said pretty much every idea and
sentiment found in Promulgation of Universal Peace and Paris Talks, but Mark
and Susan routinely call those two works "Pilgrims' Notes".

I am now struck by the fact that the sources you quoted, Susan, do not say
"Pilgrims' notes" but rather the "degree of authenticity" is questioned.
That is a far cry from saying they are Pilgrims' notes. Do you have more
sources that put these works attributed to Abdu'l-Baha into question?

The issue in my mind is the freedom, no, the command that we all must read
and think critically for ourselves. I firmly believe the ideas and feelings
communicated in PUP and Paris Talks are those of 'Abdu'l-Baha, and I am
entitled to believe that. I believe I can functionally and reasonably defend
my beliefs. And I am willing to listen to others defend their beliefs, and
firmly believe in their right not to be convinced by my (more) reasonable
beliefs.

The unity of the Baha'i Faith rests upon our individual insistence that,
apart from the Covenant of Baha'u'llah, all other Baha'i beliefs are
encouraged, even if they are not our own beliefs.

--Kent


"Susan Maneck" <smaneck@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:nqidnX2iw7D09R7VnZ2dnUVZ_oDinZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
...it's my understanding that its contents are NOT pilgrim notes and that
the book is on a par with Some Answered Questions .

Dear Kent,

That's not what the Universal House of Justice says about Promulgation
of Universal Peace:

"The original of "Some Answered Questions" in Persian is preserved in
the Holy Land; its text was read in full and corrected by Abdu'l-Baha
Himself. Unfortunately, Abdu'l-Baha did not read and authenticate all
transcripts of His other talks, some of which have been translated
into various languages and published. For many of His addresses
included in "The Promulgation of Universal Peace" and "Paris Talks",
for example, no original authenticated text has yet been found.
However, the Guardian allowed such compilations to continue to be used
by the friends. In the future each talk will have to be identified and
those which are unauthenticated will have to be clearly distinguished
from those which form a part of Baha'i Scripture. This does not mean
that the unauthenticated talks will have to cease to be used -- merely
that the degree of authenticity of every document will have to be
known and understood. (23 March 1987)"

If they were just
pilgrim notes, they would never be included in other compilations such as
Baha'i World Faith.

It is not an accident that Baha'i World Faith is no longer published.

Whereas pilgrim notes are just that -- notes/memories of
visits with 'Abdu'l-Baha -- Some Answered Questions and The Promulgation
of
Universal Peace are both compilations of talks/dissertations given by
'Abdu'l-Baha at formal sessions during his monumental visit to the US and
Canada in 1912.

Actually Some Answered Questions consists of table talks given by
Abdu'l-Baha during Laura Clifford Barney's various pilgrimages to
Haifa between 1904-1906. It was published in 1908, well before
Abdu'l-Baha's trip to America. The reason these talks are *not*
considered pilgrim's notes and have the authority of scripture is not
because they are the result of formal sessions with Abdu'l-Baha but
because Abdu'l-Baha was able to review the entire manuscript and make
corrections.

This treasury of His words is a compilation of informal talks and
extemporary discourses delivered in Persian and Arabic, interpreted by
proficient linguists who accompanied Him, and taken stenographically in
both
Oriental and Occidental tongue. [Howard MacNutt, excerpted from 1922
Introduction, "The Promulgation of Universal Peace"]

Shoghi Effendi did not think so highly of those translators, many of
whom subsequently became Covenant breakers.

"The early translations are far from being accurate, no matter who the
translator may be. Shoghi Effendi firmly believes that only tablets
with the Master's signature and in the original tongue should be
recognized. Any translations or copies of them fail from having real
authority. This shows the importance of collecting the original
Tablets that bear the Master's signature."

(Shoghi Effendi, Extracts from the USBN)


warmest, Susan






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